is autism a developmental disorder or not?

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guywithAS
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01 Sep 2011, 10:10 pm

ok, time to talk about the "third rail" of autism.

is autism a developmental disorder or not?

because google has 1.7 million search results on autism developmental disorder: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c ... l+disorder

and if it is a developmental disorder, just how developmental is it?

lets assume we're dealing with a person with aspergers who has no sensory issues and is at the mild end of the spectrum.

if we think improvement is possible, how much improvement? some? all? if its complete improvement, are we talking about a cure??

i realise this is a third rail and we shouldn't talk about cures. but at this point i think my social ability is starting to exceed the average NT social ability. and i have been self diagnosed, plus diagnosed by 2 psychiatrists in different first world countries. i also did a hell of a lot of work on myself to improve.

so is there a cure or not? is autism developmental or not?



littlelily613
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01 Sep 2011, 10:21 pm

Autism is a pervasive developmental disorder with different levels of severity. It is not a development delay, but causes the person with ASD to have DIFFERENT development than NTs.


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Apple_in_my_Eye
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01 Sep 2011, 11:51 pm

I was (re-)reading recently that there are people who had polio as children, but fully recovered by adulthood. However, after 20-40 years, some of those people started having polio symptoms again. It turned out that as children they had lost motor neurons, but by pushing themselves the remaining neurons sprouted new connections which took over for the ones that were lost. However, those remaining neurons were not "designed" for the increased workload, and eventually broke down.

From a behaviorist POV those people were cured. But from a more common-sense POV they weren't really cured, but were rather compensating. Whether that model applies to most ASD people is unknown, of course.

I guess the question is whether neuroplasticity + work/effort causes and ASD brain to re-wire itself into a NT brain, or whether it causes wiring changes that are different than NT, but lead to compensations which allow behavior & functionality which are indistinguishable from NT behavior & functionality. (It would be interesting to see some functional brain scans of NT's vs. "cured" ASD people.)



CrinklyCrustacean
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02 Sep 2011, 2:55 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I guess the question is whether neuroplasticity + work/effort causes and ASD brain to re-wire itself into a NT brain, or whether it causes wiring changes that are different than NT, but lead to compensations which allow behavior & functionality which are indistinguishable from NT behavior & functionality.

I think the latter is more probable. From my own experience, as someone who has overcome a lot of the social difficulties and unconventional thinking, sooner or later something will cause my aspie characteristics to come out. Put more crudely, a fake will always be a fake, no matter how closely it mimics the original.



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02 Sep 2011, 3:21 am

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I guess the question is whether neuroplasticity + work/effort causes and ASD brain to re-wire itself into a NT brain, or whether it causes wiring changes that are different than NT, but lead to compensations which allow behavior & functionality which are indistinguishable from NT behavior & functionality.

I think the latter is more probable. From my own experience, as someone who has overcome a lot of the social difficulties and unconventional thinking, sooner or later something will cause my aspie characteristics to come out. Put more crudely, a fake will always be a fake, no matter how closely it mimics the original.


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TPE2
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02 Sep 2011, 3:47 am

I think "developmental disorder" is simply medical jargon for "innate disorder" (in contrast with "disorder created by environmental trauma").



DC
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02 Sep 2011, 3:53 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I guess the question is whether neuroplasticity + work/effort causes and ASD brain to re-wire itself into a NT brain, or whether it causes wiring changes that are different than NT, but lead to compensations which allow behavior & functionality which are indistinguishable from NT behavior & functionality. (It would be interesting to see some functional brain scans of NT's vs. "cured" ASD people.)



It has been done.

Even in someone that masks their autism well, the brain is very different.

Skip forward to 19:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ


Or


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10929032

But take that with a pinch of salt:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/ ... statistics



OrangeCloud
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02 Sep 2011, 4:53 am

The term 'Developmental Disorder' is ambiguous at best and bigotted at worst because it implies that there is a correct 'order' as opposed to an incorrect one into which one will or could develop.

So it has a bigotted undertone because a neurological deviation from the norm is being slammed as incorrect



guywithAS
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02 Sep 2011, 7:18 am

interesting replies!

temple grandin has sensory issues. i don't. so i don't see her brain scans apply to me. i don't like how brain scans are used to convince people that things are fundamentally broken or different.

we also know from here on the forums there are many people who make amazing progress.

i'm going put forward a slightly different definition of autism:

autism is a developmental disorder in which one or more major emotional developmental milestones are missed. however it is possible to go back and pass that milestone and when that happens, major progress will be made. in some cases it might be possible for the individual to be indistinguishable from an NT, and thus be considered cured.

i've been through all that stuff saying our brains are different, brain scans and all the rest. i simply don't agree anymore. for those of us without sensory issues and are at the mild end of the spectrum i think its wrong.

i also think its interesting how we all know autism isn't that well understood. so that means the "experts" of today are likely to see themselves discredited at some point in their lifetime.



MC_Hammer
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02 Sep 2011, 8:21 am

some people with autism can have physical signs such as big head, poor motor skills, which I think favours the arguement that it's a developmental disorder. That's not to say you can't overcome the social problems, but I don't think it's just a condition that's all in your mind either..



guywithAS
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02 Sep 2011, 8:53 am

MC_Hammer wrote:
some people with autism can have physical signs such as big head, poor motor skills, which I think favours the arguement that it's a developmental disorder. That's not to say you can't overcome the social problems, but I don't think it's just a condition that's all in your mind either..


i have both a big head and mildly poor motor skills. but so do a lot of people.

i find it somewhat questionable that this stuff would be considered to only apply to the autism spectrum (or PDD's).



Ettina
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02 Sep 2011, 9:55 am

Quote:
i have both a big head and mildly poor motor skills. but so do a lot of people.


How big a head? When medical types talk about a large head, they're meaning around the 97th percentile or greater. By definition, that's not a lot of people.

Quote:
and if it is a developmental disorder, just how developmental is it?

lets assume we're dealing with a person with aspergers who has no sensory issues and is at the mild end of the spectrum.

if we think improvement is possible, how much improvement? some? all? if its complete improvement, are we talking about a cure??


I think you're misunderstanding what 'developmental disorder' means.

A developmental disorder means one that - rather than having a simple steady effect throughout life or else affecting you after you're fully grown - interacts with and affects the course of child development processes. Things like milestone attainment, achieving the developmental tasks of various ages, and so forth. Doesn't mean those things won't happen, but they may happen at a different time or in a different way.

If you're thinking it means they won't develop, that's actually precisely the opposite of what it means. Deafness, even if present from birth, is not considered a developmental disorder because the child will (usually) have the same hearing acuity throughout their entire life. They're not going to learn how to hear, and most won't lose what little hearing they have, either. If you find a 4 year old with a hearing threshold of 90db (they can hear a jet plane take off but that's about it), you can be pretty certain that 16 years later they'll be a 20 year old with a hearing threshold of 90db.

Autism is different. If you find a nonverbal autistic 4 year old who's extremely aloof and not toilet trained, and meet them again 16 years later, about all you can predict is that they'll probably still be autistic. But they could be anywhere from high IQ college student who's just a bit weird to a nonverbal aloof guy in diapers. Even if they're still nonverbal, aloof and in diapers, they won't be the same as they were when they were 4 on the measures relevant to autism. They'll have a bunch of different areas where they've grown and matured, albeit at a slow rate, and maybe areas that they've lost ground. That's because the basic way in which autism expresses itself is directly affected by the developmental processes the child is going through, and in turn it affects those processes as well.

This actually means that developmental disorders can show more progress. No amount of special education can make a deaf kid hear better. But the right treatments can sometimes move someone from LFA to MFA or even HFA, or else change things more subtly but still noticeably. Even our measurements have to be adapted for age - we don't change what is considered a normal hearing threshold depending on the age of the person being measured, but we do change what's considered normal academic attainment or social skills or activity level.

And on to the topic of cures... cure does not mean the same thing for a developmental disorder. It's a lot stickier a question. For a deaf person, it's easy - if someone goes from having a hearing threshold of 90db to a hearing threshold of 5db (meaning they can hear someone whisper), then they've been cured. Obviously. But if a dyslexic kid goes from being at the 1st percent for reading to being at the 50th percentile, have they be cured? It's hard to say. Because that same kid, a few years later, might fall behind again once the expectations change. Let's say he was a grade 2 kid who lacked the 'pre-reading' skills seen in average Kindergarteners, and specialized instructions has taught him to decode words. Then, in grade 4 or so, things shift from learning to read to reading to learn, and it turns out that while he can sound out words, the basics of reading take up so much energy for him that he has no time left over for understanding the text, and so he falls behind again. Or maybe he doesn't - maybe he doesn't find reading particularly harder and he can weather the new challenges, but instead he starts to fall behind in math, because the underlying learning difficulty was a subtle spatial processing issue that made it hard for him to tell specific letters apart, and as soon as he's faced with spatial math problems such as geometry, he falters.

And development doesn't stop once they're an adult, either. People used to think it did, but there are different developmental processes going on in adulthood too. 18-25 year olds are just figuring out what 'being an adult' entails, and learning a whole pile of skills in a short time. Sometimes around 23-30 they've got the basics figured out, and they're starting families and careers and figuring out what the rest of their lives will look like. Then the process of having kids matures them a whole bunch too, progressively changing them somewhat with each child's developmental stages (a father of an infant has very different concerns from a father of a teenager). Finally, their kids grow up and leave them, and they need to shift into 'post-parenting' and figure out what to do with all their new free time. Meanwhile the effects of aging are starting to hit, and they're looking at it getting progressively worse and trying to make plans for how they'll live in old age. Retirement is another big adjustment, and one many people don't handle well - death rates are very high in the year immediately following retirement. If they weather that transition, now they're old, and looking back on a mostly-completed life and trying to decide whether they did a good job. Some elderly people fall into despair and regret, realizing they made a mess of things and it's too late to fix it up. Others come to terms with the fact that not everything went perfectly, and take pride in what they did do well. Meanwhile, they're also coming to terms with the inevitability of death. (This isn't the sequence for everyone, but for the majority of people.)

A developmental disorder will look a bit different at each of those stages in adulthood, too. And not enough research has been done into how these conditions interact with adult developmental stages.



littlelily613
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02 Sep 2011, 1:03 pm

OrangeCloud wrote:
The term 'Developmental Disorder' is ambiguous at best and bigotted


I don't think it is bigotted at all. In can affect: speech, communication, inability to develop the natural tacit understanding of nonverbal language, motor skills, self-help skills, etc. Sorry, but all of those are developmental issues.


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02 Sep 2011, 1:13 pm

Yes, most of us do grow up to be fine, upstanding members of society. I'm also not broken, so I don't need a cure. :)


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