Opinions on pro-cure/anti-cure for class assignment
Last edited by Gedrene on 20 Nov 2011, 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
My motor skills were remedied in the same way most children improve their motor skills, through effort. It therefore was no medical issue.
And then I give explanations why the seven intelligences idea is bumpkis which is what really matters.
The only motor involed thing on the DSM IV is stereotypy, stimming. That is not reduced motor skills. That's unusual behaviour.
My motor skills were remedied in the same way most children improve their motor skills, through effort. It therefore was no medical issue.
And then I give explanations why the seven intelligences idea is bumpkis which is what really matters.
The only motor involed thing on the DSM IV is stereotypy, stimming. That is not reduced motor skills. That's unusual behaviour.
Motor clumsiness, is actually what is in the ICD10 and the Gilberg diagnositic criteria for Aspergers commonly used in the UK where you live. There is no source that lists motor skills clumsiness, problems, deficits, issues or whatever synomym one may choose to use for motor skills problems that are a feature/diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, as a co-morbid condition, it is either listed as a feature, or part of the diagnostic criteria in two widely used criteria used to diagnose Aspergers.
Deficits can be from mild to severe, there is no definition of deficit or deficiency that states it means incapability.
http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/7/4/310.full
Social impairments
Narrow interests
Repetitive routines
Speech and language peculiarities
Non-verbal communication problems
Motor clumsiness
I've provided three third party sources now that list motor skills problems as either a diagnostic criteria or clinical feature of Aspergers, Lord from 1995, ICD10, and Gilberg Diagnostic Criteria. Per the linked Article Hans Asperger himself described the individuals that he termed as having the condition to have motor skills problems in 50 to 90 percent of individuals and found it hard to take part in team sports..
You on the other hand have presented an opinion that motor skills is a co-morbid condition of Autism, with absolutely no third party sources to back up your individual opinion. No, Motor skills problems is not a co-morbid with Aspergers it is a clinical feature of Aspergers, that two widely used diagnostic tools still use to diagnosis Aspergers with.
There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the assertion that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of Aspergers/Autism and still used as a diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, there are no available reputable sources that state that motor skills problems are a co-morbid with either autism or aspergers. If you can find any source, please provide it, otherwise I am listening to one person's opinion that Motor skills problems are a co-morbid condition of low functioning autism.
Here is the actual quote from the reference you provided that criticized multiple intelligence, that also states that many educationalists support it. If you are calling it a lie, than the rest of your referenced article is in question as well.
These are the facts in the article you presented; if you call them a lie, I don't trust any of the other facts either.
http://www.niccy.org/uploaded_docs/Aspe ... ndix_1.pdf
Furthermore I think the DSM IV clearly states only repetitive and stereotyped movements as a sign of asperger's, whilst it is the autism page that talks about motor skills deficits.
Also fact is that most of what you say is not third party sourced either to begin with.
http://www.niccy.org/uploaded_docs/Aspe ... ndix_1.pdf
Furthermore I think the DSM IV clearly states only repetitive and stereotyped movements as a sign of asperger's, whilst it is the autism page that talks about motor skills deficits.
Also fact is that most of what you say is not third party sourced either to begin with.
I'm not confused at all the only point I was making is that in the ICD 10 motor clumsiness is included in the diagnostic criteria (a) in the ICD10. It is obviously not a necessary diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, otherwise those people without motor skills problems with this part of the diagnositic criteria would not gain a diagnosis, but it is clearly a part of the overall diagnostic criteria for Aspergers syndrome as stated here in section (a) of the ICD-10 from your reference.
Apparently you may not have scrolled down far enough on your reference to get to the diagnostic criteria for aspergers syndrome. In the definition of Aspergers it talks about some elements being common, but the actual diagnostic criteria, clearly defines exactly what the diagnostic criteria for asperger's syndrome is in the ICD=10.
([Diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome taken from ICD-10
(a) There is no clinically significant general delay in spoken or receptive language or
cognitive development. Diagnosis requires that single words should have developed by
2 years of age or earlier and that communicative phrases be used by 3 years of age or
earlier. Self-help skills, adaptive behaviour and curiosity about the environment during
the first 3 years should be at a level consistent with normal intellectual development.
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual
(although not a necessary diagnostic feature). Isolated special skills, often related to
abnormal preoccupations, are common, but are not required for diagnosis.
(b) There are qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction (criteria as for
autism).
(c) The individual exhibits an unusual intense, circumscribed interest of restricted,
repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour interests and activities (criteria as for
autism; however, it would be less usual for these to include either motor mannerisms or
preoccupations with part-objects or non-functional elements of play materials).
(d) The disorder is not attributable to other varieties of pervasive developmental
disorder; simple schizophrenia schizotypal disorder; obsessive-compulsive disorder;
anakastic personality disorder; reactive and disinhibited attachment disorders of
childhood.
This statement doesn't make much sense to me.
If someone has any kind of deficit they have a deficit. If they by any way shape or form find a way to overcome that deficit they no longer necessarily have an observable deficit. This doesn't mean that the deficit never existed, or that the underlying physiological cause of the deficit does not exist, it just means it was successfully accommodated.
Never the less, the majority of people diagnosed with Aspergers have observable motor skills problems, that are clinical features/part of the diagnostic criteria; that's a fact, and illustrated in both the ICD 10 and gilberg criteria. It's also a fact illustrated by Asperger himself, and Lord from 1995, in the clinical features, reference that I provided earlier in the thread.
Anything observed lower than normal is a deficit, and in these majority of individuals diagnosed with Aspergers that do indeed have motor skills problems that are lower that what is normally seen in individuals, meaning they do have some degree of a deficit/impairment/problem with motor skills.
The bottom line is this: Motor skills problems/deficits are a usual clinical feature/diagnostic criteria in Aspergers. If you like anecdotal facts better than the actual resources that I and you have provided now that you provided the actual diagnostic guidelines for Aspergers from the ICD10, do a search here on the many different posts where people with aspergers have talked about their motor skills deficits.
There are whole thread where people illustrate the handwriting problems they have as a result of deficits in fine motor skills. People talk about problems with coordination, clumsiness, playing team sports. All the stuff we have been talking about here.
I have sourced Lord, Asperger, ICD10 and Gilberg criteria, all with third party sources available in this thread. You just provided another reference from the ICD10 that proves my point.
The internet is a huge resource, if you can google any reputable source that states that motor skills problems are co-morbids with autism or aspergers, I will be shocked. What you will find is it is a common part, or clinical feature of Aspergers. I have heard no one but you suggest that it is a co-morbid condition associated with autism or aspergers.
I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else. So you're wrong. And you ignored it:
You said that the ICD10 said aspies have motor skill deficits. I corrected you by saying that the ICD10 diagnostic sheet puts autism and aspergers under the same umbrella and the DSM IV says that only stimming is in the asperger's diagnosis and motor skills deficits not included.
You said that Gillberg said that 'motor clumsiness' was part of asperger's, when actually it was just clumsiness. Motor clumsiness was just an obvious attempt on your part to use the diagnosis by somehow binding together the term motor deficit (which you had been referring to forever beforehand) and clumsiness (what it actually said).
Your attempt to try and link up asperger's and deficits in motor skills again was by referring to Hans Asperger's original 1944 paper, when the differences between aspergers and autism were by no means established at all.
I did not prove any truth at all. All that was proved was that you weren't paying attention. A sign of a certain autism characteristic peeking through maybe?
Furthermore I used the DSM IV and corrected your use of the ICD10 and gillberg resources.
Oodain
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Age: 34
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Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
yet my motor skills are not impaired enough not to be able to snowboard a glacier, in reality does the theoretical differences really matter that much?
i experience small involuntary lockups when overwhelmed and i have a tendency to lose ballance when a sharp balance change is in order where my brother does not (then again he teaches surfing, snowboarded as long as me and competes on a national level(surfing))
then again i dont know if its fine motor control or not, i have a lot harder time at writing than i would like with frequent mistypes (usually wrongly hit keys or wrong muscle sequencing, typing the letters in another order than i intended)
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Gedrene Wrote:
Aghogday wrote:
Full context of what I said was:
Aghogday wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything, you again seem to be missing what the ICD10 states from the very reference you provided, maybe you missed it again, but the full diagnostic criteria for Aspergers which includes motor skills delays and motor clumsiness is in the ICD10 diagnostic criteria under section A from the Aspergers Diagnosis in the ICD10; you are reading what it says in the definition of Aspergers apparently, where it states the two conditions are related, but nowhere in the ICD10 does it suggest that speech delay is part of Aspergers. The full diagnostic from the ICD10 is included below:
(a) There is no clinically significant general delay in spoken or receptive language or
cognitive development. Diagnosis requires that single words should have developed by
2 years of age or earlier and that communicative phrases be used by 3 years of age or
earlier. Self-help skills, adaptive behaviour and curiosity about the environment during
the first 3 years should be at a level consistent with normal intellectual development.
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature). Isolated special skills, often related to
abnormal preoccupations, are common, but are not required for diagnosis.
(b) There are qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction (criteria as for
autism).
(c) The individual exhibits an unusual intense, circumscribed interest of restricted,
repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour interests and activities (criteria as for
autism; however, it would be less usual for these to include either motor mannerisms or
preoccupations with part-objects or non-functional elements of play materials).
(d) The disorder is not attributable to other varieties of pervasive developmental
disorder; simple schizophrenia schizotypal disorder; obsessive-compulsive disorder;
anakastic personality disorder; reactive and disinhibited attachment disorders of
childhood.
Gedrene Wrote:
Gedrene Wrote:
Aghogday Wrote:
Full context of what I said:
Never the less, the majority of people diagnosed with Aspergers have observable motor skills problems, that are clinical features/part of the diagnostic criteria; that's a fact, and illustrated in both the ICD 10 and gilberg criteria. It's also a fact illustrated by Asperger himself, and Lord from 1995, in the clinical features, reference that I provided earlier in the thread.
Aghogday Wrote:
A person could have a deficit in arm function from an accident and later improve the function and no longer be seen as having a deficit in arm function. There is no definition of "deficit" that suggests that a person with a deficit is incapable of normal functioning or is incapable of being as good as someone else. Some people do overcome deficits in functioning.
http://medical.yourdictionary.com/deficit
deficit medical definition
noun
1.A lack or deficiency of a substance.
2.A lack or impairment in mental or physical functioning.
Aghogday Wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Aghogday wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
You said that Gillberg said that 'motor clumsiness' was part of asperger's, when actually it was just clumsiness. Motor clumsiness was just an obvious attempt on your part to use the diagnosis by somehow binding together the term motor deficit (which you had been referring to forever beforehand) and clumsiness (what it actually said)
Aghogday Wrote:
http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/7/4/310.full
Gillberg's (1991) diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome
Social impairments
Narrow interests
Repetitive routines
Speech and language peculiarities
Non-verbal communication problems
Motor clumsiness
aghogday wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
My motor skills were remedied in the same way most children improve their motor skills, through effort. It therefore was no medical issue.
Aghogday Wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
Gedrene wrote:
- communication difficulties
-a lack of social interest
-poor grasp of irrelevant communicative features such as analogy
-strong personal interests.
To say anything else is autism one is talking about low functioning autism not aspergers, and even then it's clear that it's a comorbidity
Aghogday Wrote:
i experience small involuntary lockups when overwhelmed and i have a tendency to lose ballance when a sharp balance change is in order where my brother does not (then again he teaches surfing, snowboarded as long as me and competes on a national level(surfing))
then again i dont know if its fine motor control or not, i have a lot harder time at writing than i would like with frequent mistypes (usually wrongly hit keys or wrong muscle sequencing, typing the letters in another order than i intended)
Your last comment is a complete mess but I'll try and salvage it for what it's worth.
One can see this in practice with regards to the ICD-10 when one looks on this website when it says:
http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/about_as ... s_syndrome
And lo and behold I said that motor issues were not a necessary feature of asperger's.
One can see this in practice with regards to the ICD-10 when one looks on this website when it says:
http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/about_as ... s_syndrome
And lo and behold I said that motor issues were not a necessary feature of asperger's.
Aghogday Wrote:
Aghogday wrote:
Aghogday Wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning. It makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal. Most people with aspergers don't fully overcome it, it is why it is considered a clinical feature usually seen in Aspergers.
Not being able to write neatly because of fine motor skills problems or not being able to overcome clumsiness because of motor skills problems, are both impairment/deficits that are clinical features in Aspergers that vary among individuals.
Some have no impairments/deficits in these motor skills abilities and some have significant impariments/deficits in these motor skills abilities, however it has been identified through scientific research as a clinical feature of Aspergers that is usually seen in the condition.
The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?
I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.
The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?
I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.
I provided evidence that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of autism.
You provided an opinion of what you thought a definition of deficit was, I clarified it by presented a source, that clearly indicates that deficit means an impairment in functioning.
We are arguing semantics here. Issues, deficits, impairments are all words used to describe problems in physical functioning. Clumsiness is a physical manisfestation of an impairment in motor coordination in many individuals with Aspegers; it's a fairly minor impairment in physical functioning considering the grande scheme of life, but from a Medical perspective that is what it is.
It's an observable physiological Motor skills problem that has been researched and noted in 50 to 90 percent of individuals with Aspergers, and considered a clinical feature. And medical research provides evidence that the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls this, is different in some individuals that have aspergers.
Hopefully this information from Wiki will provide a clearer understanding, of the relationship of clumsiness and motor coordination skills.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skills_disorder
The disorder has its basis in the brain, a network of neural connections that allow humans to process the information received. Motor Dyspraxia is a result of weak or disorganised connections in the brain, which then translates to trouble with motor coordination. Movements are performed because the brain sends messages to the area requiring action. The dyspraxia is a result of weak or poorly structured neural pathways to the moving parts of the body.
Clumsiness and tendency to fall down are a matter of poor balance and gross motor coordination. The origin of all of these difficulties is the vestibular system of the inner ear. The vestibule is an organ responsible for maintaining balance and coordination and is located beside the cochlea, which acts as a sound receptor. Although they attend to different information, the proximity of the vestibule and cochlea allows them to complement each other. The other consequence of their relationship is that if one system is not functioning well, the other is concurrently affected.
Aspergers isn't a disease, it is a neurological disorder, that some accommodate to very well in their lives and some struggle with. It's neither all good or all bad. But, I see no use in denying the reality of the clinical features associated with the condition that are clearly identified as impairments in some with the condition.
I accept the fact that you don't agree with the commonly accepted research on this issue, or my opinion that is based on that research. I appreciate the apology for saying people are lying; all the personal stuff has no place in a civil discussion. Not everyone is going to ignore it as much as I have.
The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?
I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.
I provided evidence that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of autism.
You provided an opinion of what you thought a definition of deficit was, I clarified it by presented a source, that clearly indicates that deficit means an impairment in functioning.
We are arguing semantics here. Issues, deficits, impairments are all words used to describe problems in physical functioning. Clumsiness is a physical manisfestation of an impairment in motor coordination in many individuals with Aspegers; it's a fairly minor impairment in physical functioning considering the grande scheme of life, but from a Medical perspective that is what it is.
It's an observable physiological Motor skills problem that has been researched and noted in 50 to 90 percent of individuals with Aspergers, and considered a clinical feature. And medical research provides evidence that the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls this, is different in some individuals that have aspergers.
Hopefully this information from Wiki will provide a clearer understanding, of the relationship of clumsiness and motor coordination skills.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skills_disorder
The disorder has its basis in the brain, a network of neural connections that allow humans to process the information received. Motor Dyspraxia is a result of weak or disorganised connections in the brain, which then translates to trouble with motor coordination. Movements are performed because the brain sends messages to the area requiring action. The dyspraxia is a result of weak or poorly structured neural pathways to the moving parts of the body.
Clumsiness and tendency to fall down are a matter of poor balance and gross motor coordination. The origin of all of these difficulties is the vestibular system of the inner ear. The vestibule is an organ responsible for maintaining balance and coordination and is located beside the cochlea, which acts as a sound receptor. Although they attend to different information, the proximity of the vestibule and cochlea allows them to complement each other. The other consequence of their relationship is that if one system is not functioning well, the other is concurrently affected.
Aspergers isn't a disease, it is a neurological disorder, that some accommodate to very well in their lives and some struggle with. It's neither all good or all bad. But, I see no use in denying the reality of the clinical features associated with the condition that are clearly identified as impairments in some with the condition.
I accept the fact that you don't agree with the commonly accepted research on this issue, or my opinion that is based on that research. I appreciate the apology for saying people are lying; all the personal stuff has no place in a civil discussion. Not everyone is going to ignore it as much as I have.
I disagree and I have believed that I have said why, but I said I would not argue any more. So I'll be quiet. I said lie instead of untruth. It's nothing like a mad tract though.
Has anyone read the Moomintroll books?
It just occured to me that the diagnostic criteria aghogday listed above for Aspergers describe the Hemulen.
[/random]
It suddenly occurred to me as I was reading the third book to my kids. I found your post when I went to Google to see if anyone else had made this connection.
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ASPartOfMe
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Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,483
Location: Long Island, New York
Since the thread was started in 2011 I hope the OP's executive functioning is not so bad that she has yet to complete the assignment.
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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
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