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ruveyn
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31 Mar 2012, 4:21 pm

Billybones wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
This folks are enemies of the State and have no rights than the Israeli government is bound to recognize.

ruveyn


Spoken like a true "libertarian", eh?


When the thugs come with the bombs and the rockets force has been initiated. Libertarians are NOT pacifists.

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01 Apr 2012, 2:05 am

I agree with Sweetleaf....both sides just need to wake up from this hate induced trance and try to make things work.

See the biggest problem here is simple, it is escalation, each time one side attacks the other, the other side attacks back....and it keeps getting taken to the next level. Both sides need to agree to stop fighting. Both countries are suffering immensely because of this, and they need to see this constant fighting does not work.

I dont think what Sweetleaf is saying is totally unreasonable. Pick apart details if you must, but the core of what she is saying is both sides are guilty and both sides need to agree to stop fighting.
What is so unreasonable about that?

Jojo


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01 Apr 2012, 11:12 am

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-defense-ministry-plan-earmarks-10-percent-of-west-bank-for-settlement-expansion-1.421589

Quote:
Newly released maps indicate Civil Administration secretly setting aside additional land for Jewish settlements, presumably with the intention of expanding them.



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02 Apr 2012, 2:21 pm

From the founder of Human Rights Watch:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-human-rights-groups-ignore-palestinians-war-of-words/2011/09/26/gIQAWU5y2K_story.html



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02 Apr 2012, 2:54 pm

Jono wrote:
From the founder of Human Rights Watch:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-human-rights-groups-ignore-palestinians-war-of-words/2011/09/26/gIQAWU5y2K_story.html


Gist of article: Why isn't it a crime to speak your mind?

:roll:


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02 Apr 2012, 4:02 pm

snapcap wrote:
Jono wrote:
From the founder of Human Rights Watch:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-human-rights-groups-ignore-palestinians-war-of-words/2011/09/26/gIQAWU5y2K_story.html


Gist of article: Why isn't it a crime to speak your mind?

:roll:


So, the fact that Hamas has in it's charter, the destruction of Israel as it's primary goal, is them "just speaking their minds"? I see. The next time someone analogously talks about how Palestinians should be wiped off the map, I shall also consider them "just speaking their minds" just like you have done with Israel.



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02 Apr 2012, 11:09 pm

Jono wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Jono wrote:
From the founder of Human Rights Watch:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-human-rights-groups-ignore-palestinians-war-of-words/2011/09/26/gIQAWU5y2K_story.html


Gist of article: Why isn't it a crime to speak your mind?

:roll:


So, the fact that Hamas has in it's charter, the destruction of Israel as it's primary goal, is them "just speaking their minds"? I see. The next time someone analogously talks about how Palestinians should be wiped off the map, I shall also consider them "just speaking their minds" just like you have done with Israel.


You're right. Indefinite detention for anyone caught speaking poorly of some other country.


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03 Apr 2012, 12:36 am

jojobean wrote:
I agree with Sweetleaf....both sides just need to wake up from this hate induced trance and try to make things work.

See the biggest problem here is simple, it is escalation, each time one side attacks the other, the other side attacks back....and it keeps getting taken to the next level. Both sides need to agree to stop fighting. Both countries are suffering immensely because of this, and they need to see this constant fighting does not work.

I dont think what Sweetleaf is saying is totally unreasonable. Pick apart details if you must, but the core of what she is saying is both sides are guilty and both sides need to agree to stop fighting.
What is so unreasonable about that?

Jojo


Yeah that about sums it up...and I too wonder what is so unreasonable about that.


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03 Apr 2012, 12:39 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
The money and weapons are not used for the purpose of killing Palestinians. Not sure if you ever talked to an IDF soldier before, but they aren't directed toward killing Palestininas with each new weapons they make or get.

I know that, but considering it is the military that Israel uses to keep the palestinians 'in line' in an indirect way it does. I just don't see why the U.S should be involved with this unless they actually have some idea for a solution. Just funding Israels military and accusing anyone who disagrees with Israels policies of being an anti-semite is not a good way to go about it. I mean I really don't care what religion people follow or what ethnic background they have but that does not make me like Israels government anymore than any other government.


Also, the One Nation approach is never going to happen...if you knew the history you would know this would never be accepted from either side for legitimate reasons....Jews would become a minority overnight in this new state and they would be at the mercy of the Arabs. Arabs would never desire a shared govt with Jews. This concept was originally devised in the 1920s..in fact you could see part of the reason for the Partition plan in 1948 by the way this system was just flat out not working within the framework of the British Mandate govt than ran Palestine. A One State Solution is a Final Solution for Jews...Every diplomat and person realizes that it would have to be 2 states.


Yeah that is why I think both sides should get over their thousand year old grudge already, because endless fighting between the two isn't going to work....and the children in palestine and Israel should not grow up learning to hate each other, that's BS and a waste of peoples lives in my opinion. I mean that would be like if i decided to start a 'take back the native land from the white man' revolution since I'm part native american that would just stir old grudges.



..its not a 1,000 year grudge...its actually about 75-80 years of actual conflict. But the Israeli military is not there to keep Palestinians in line...its there to protect Israelies from very real violence internally ( suicide bombers) and external ( hezbolla, hamas, Iran).


Also protection is one thing, but treating all the Palestinians as potential terrorists is not working. Also I still havn't seen anything to disprove they disregard civilian lives when they 'pursue' these terrorists.



When pursuing terrorists? You do know that their are specially designed units in the IDF called Duvduvarim that are urban warfare tactical units that are trained on how to minimalize the loss of human life...when rockets from Gaza city are fired into Israeli territory, Israel has no other choice but to go after the targets which are deliberatly placed in civilian areas as to maximize media attention. When your enemy hides in civilian buildings, including schools and hospitals, you are left with very little options.

Im sure you knew that.....


So its ok if civilians get shot because they where in the way of Israels military might.......uhh like I've said I think both sides are in the wrong, so I don't see why people seem to insist Isreals government is justified in every single action they take and choice they make. Most people aren't even that excessively loyal to their own countries governments.



Civilians die in War...I hate to break this news to you...the world is not peaches and cream and butterflies.
And you're not trying to insult my intelligence?

Do you want me to explain to you how mant civilians in Japan lost their lives due to Allied aerial bombardment? would you make this case that because civilians died on both sides in world war II that no side was in the right? this Universal relativism is frankly obscene.


My point was from what I've looked into is Israel having a blatant disregard for civilian lives. Also for the record I do not agree with the nukes being dropped on Japan either. I get the reasoning for it, but it doesn't make me agree with killing a bunch of civilians all in the name of winning a war. But hey I'm just not much of a fighter in that sense I guess.


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JeremyNJ1984
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03 Apr 2012, 10:10 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
The money and weapons are not used for the purpose of killing Palestinians. Not sure if you ever talked to an IDF soldier before, but they aren't directed toward killing Palestininas with each new weapons they make or get.

I know that, but considering it is the military that Israel uses to keep the palestinians 'in line' in an indirect way it does. I just don't see why the U.S should be involved with this unless they actually have some idea for a solution. Just funding Israels military and accusing anyone who disagrees with Israels policies of being an anti-semite is not a good way to go about it. I mean I really don't care what religion people follow or what ethnic background they have but that does not make me like Israels government anymore than any other government.


Also, the One Nation approach is never going to happen...if you knew the history you would know this would never be accepted from either side for legitimate reasons....Jews would become a minority overnight in this new state and they would be at the mercy of the Arabs. Arabs would never desire a shared govt with Jews. This concept was originally devised in the 1920s..in fact you could see part of the reason for the Partition plan in 1948 by the way this system was just flat out not working within the framework of the British Mandate govt than ran Palestine. A One State Solution is a Final Solution for Jews...Every diplomat and person realizes that it would have to be 2 states.


Yeah that is why I think both sides should get over their thousand year old grudge already, because endless fighting between the two isn't going to work....and the children in palestine and Israel should not grow up learning to hate each other, that's BS and a waste of peoples lives in my opinion. I mean that would be like if i decided to start a 'take back the native land from the white man' revolution since I'm part native american that would just stir old grudges.



..its not a 1,000 year grudge...its actually about 75-80 years of actual conflict. But the Israeli military is not there to keep Palestinians in line...its there to protect Israelies from very real violence internally ( suicide bombers) and external ( hezbolla, hamas, Iran).


Also protection is one thing, but treating all the Palestinians as potential terrorists is not working. Also I still havn't seen anything to disprove they disregard civilian lives when they 'pursue' these terrorists.



When pursuing terrorists? You do know that their are specially designed units in the IDF called Duvduvarim that are urban warfare tactical units that are trained on how to minimalize the loss of human life...when rockets from Gaza city are fired into Israeli territory, Israel has no other choice but to go after the targets which are deliberatly placed in civilian areas as to maximize media attention. When your enemy hides in civilian buildings, including schools and hospitals, you are left with very little options.

Im sure you knew that.....


So its ok if civilians get shot because they where in the way of Israels military might.......uhh like I've said I think both sides are in the wrong, so I don't see why people seem to insist Isreals government is justified in every single action they take and choice they make. Most people aren't even that excessively loyal to their own countries governments.



Civilians die in War...I hate to break this news to you...the world is not peaches and cream and butterflies.
And you're not trying to insult my intelligence?

Do you want me to explain to you how mant civilians in Japan lost their lives due to Allied aerial bombardment? would you make this case that because civilians died on both sides in world war II that no side was in the right? this Universal relativism is frankly obscene.


My point was from what I've looked into is Israel having a blatant disregard for civilian lives. Also for the record I do not agree with the nukes being dropped on Japan either. I get the reasoning for it, but it doesn't make me agree with killing a bunch of civilians all in the name of winning a war. But hey I'm just not much of a fighter in that sense I guess.



What did you look at to get to that conclusion? reality is that in open conflict Israel has to balance its military necessity and protecting civilians....its not israels fault that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza and have chosen the path of war...that is a decision the people of gaza have to live with now and the reprecussions of it, when they elect a group that only wants war and allows them open access to civilian locations to launch attacks from. But, civilians die in war...i can't name one war where innocent people didnt die..its just a reality of world conflict throughout history.



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03 Apr 2012, 10:19 am

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
What did you look at to get to that conclusion? reality is that in open conflict Israel has to balance its military necessity and protecting civilians....its not israels fault that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza and have chosen the path of war...that is a decision the people of gaza have to live with now and the reprecussions of it, when they elect a group that only wants war and allows them open access to civilian locations to launch attacks from. But, civilians die in war...i can't name one war where innocent people didnt die..its just a reality of world conflict throughout history.


I don't think all of Isreals actions are justified, I don't think the Hamas thing in Gaza is justified though I realise usually terrorism and extremism does not happen for no reason. People don't resort to extremism for the hell of it. As I've said my position is both sides need to come to terms with yes they've hurt each other, and they should try and settle it now instead of keeping the fighting going. Also, I don't think any civilian who dies is 'innocent' but I just take an issue with killing un-armed defenseless people. Causilties are one thing, disregarding lives because 'they elected hamas' is not quite the same thing.

And like I said if you have any evidence they don't tend to disregard such things, go ahead and show it to me....but yeah cutting off food supplies, access to medical treatment, water ect. for all the palestinians in the name of fighting terrorists or whatever does not strike me as something that would be justified but whatever.


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03 Apr 2012, 12:14 pm

Billybones wrote:
You are conveniently leaving the Occupied Territories out of this analysis. The majority of Arabs under Israeli rule live here, without the basic rights of citizenship & frequently subjected to brutality, arbitrary arrest, material deprivation, confiscation of land, demolition of homes, & collective punishment. This IS a de facto Apartheid system, in place for nearly 45 years now, & the Palestinians have a legitimate right to resist. I know I would.


Are you speaking of the occupied territories that are under the administration of the Palestinian Authority? It's important to understand that while Israel may exercise de fact sovereignty over the whole territory between Jordan and the Mediterranean, the day to day administration of government in the majority of the occupied territories lies in the hands of the Palestinian Authority.

If you are referring to the portion of the occupied territories on which Israeli settlements are estabslished, you and I are not far apart--I have long maintained that Israel needs to clear about its intentions of abandoning these. Ideally, they should form part of the land swap with Fatah, and be presented as extant infrastructure for Palestinian use. (Saudi Arabia and the United States can pony up and pay Israel for their development).

But regardless of what territory you are referring to, the fact remains that Israel is a pluralist, multicultural, parliamentary democracy. None of her neighbors are even close to matching the civil liberties that she extends to her minority citizens, and the self-righteous would do well to remember that. There is much that Israel has done wrong, and there is much in which I do not support her policy. But she is still be brightest bulb in the box.


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03 Apr 2012, 2:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
What did you look at to get to that conclusion? reality is that in open conflict Israel has to balance its military necessity and protecting civilians....its not israels fault that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza and have chosen the path of war...that is a decision the people of gaza have to live with now and the reprecussions of it, when they elect a group that only wants war and allows them open access to civilian locations to launch attacks from. But, civilians die in war...i can't name one war where innocent people didnt die..its just a reality of world conflict throughout history.


I don't think all of Isreals actions are justified, I don't think the Hamas thing in Gaza is justified though I realise usually terrorism and extremism does not happen for no reason. People don't resort to extremism for the hell of it. As I've said my position is both sides need to come to terms with yes they've hurt each other, and they should try and settle it now instead of keeping the fighting going. Also, I don't think any civilian who dies is 'innocent' but I just take an issue with killing un-armed defenseless people. Causilties are one thing, disregarding lives because 'they elected hamas' is not quite the same thing.

And like I said if you have any evidence they don't tend to disregard such things, go ahead and show it to me....but yeah cutting off food supplies, access to medical treatment, water ect. for all the palestinians in the name of fighting terrorists or whatever does not strike me as something that would be justified but whatever.



Their is a reason Hamas routinely launches missiles at Israel...they are funded via Iran and see a religious and nationalist objective of wiping Israel off the map. I have shown evidence that Israel tries to avoid civilian casulties...counter terror units learn it in combat training and new better precise weaponry is developed in response to it, which are utilized by Israel.



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03 Apr 2012, 2:33 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
What did you look at to get to that conclusion? reality is that in open conflict Israel has to balance its military necessity and protecting civilians....its not israels fault that Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza and have chosen the path of war...that is a decision the people of gaza have to live with now and the reprecussions of it, when they elect a group that only wants war and allows them open access to civilian locations to launch attacks from. But, civilians die in war...i can't name one war where innocent people didnt die..its just a reality of world conflict throughout history.


I don't think all of Isreals actions are justified, I don't think the Hamas thing in Gaza is justified though I realise usually terrorism and extremism does not happen for no reason. People don't resort to extremism for the hell of it. As I've said my position is both sides need to come to terms with yes they've hurt each other, and they should try and settle it now instead of keeping the fighting going. Also, I don't think any civilian who dies is 'innocent' but I just take an issue with killing un-armed defenseless people. Causilties are one thing, disregarding lives because 'they elected hamas' is not quite the same thing.

And like I said if you have any evidence they don't tend to disregard such things, go ahead and show it to me....but yeah cutting off food supplies, access to medical treatment, water ect. for all the palestinians in the name of fighting terrorists or whatever does not strike me as something that would be justified but whatever.



Their is a reason Hamas routinely launches missiles at Israel...they are funded via Iran and see a religious and nationalist objective of wiping Israel off the map. I have shown evidence that Israel tries to avoid civilian casulties...counter terror units learn it in combat training and new better precise weaponry is developed in response to it, which are utilized by Israel.


Yes so Iran is using the frustration of the palestinians towards Israel for their own gain...not very surprising. That has been done in history a lot. People using people to their advantage, I certainly don't agree with it but its not suprising....someone has to fund hamas right just like how the U.S has funded corrupt dictators and such in small underdeveloped countries but lets ignore that. I still think both sides need to come to a solution because endless fighting wont work. But I can't control the world.


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03 Apr 2012, 7:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Billybones wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
This folks are enemies of the State and have no rights than the Israeli government is bound to recognize.

ruveyn


Spoken like a true "libertarian", eh?


When the thugs come with the bombs and the rockets force has been initiated. Libertarians are NOT pacifists.

ruveyn


The Israelis initiated this conflict, when they begged for the west to give them land that isn't there's. The Israelis are the ones with no legal rights.


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03 Apr 2012, 8:46 pm

abacacus wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Billybones wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
This folks are enemies of the State and have no rights than the Israeli government is bound to recognize.

ruveyn


Spoken like a true "libertarian", eh?


When the thugs come with the bombs and the rockets force has been initiated. Libertarians are NOT pacifists.

ruveyn


The Israelis initiated this conflict, when they begged for the west to give them land that isn't there's. The Israelis are the ones with no legal rights.


They didn't initiate the conflict, they inherited the land, a gift from God! :wink:


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