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ruveyn
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30 Apr 2012, 7:07 pm

over9000 wrote:
I'm probably the most staunch anticommunist on this site. Communism is, at best, an ideal sprung from the mind of a drug addled hippie, at worst, it's an evil institution that deserves to be reviled as much as fascism is. @#$% Karl Marx, and may he rot in hell forever.


Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

ruveyn



TM
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30 Apr 2012, 7:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
over9000 wrote:
I'm probably the most staunch anticommunist on this site. Communism is, at best, an ideal sprung from the mind of a drug addled hippie, at worst, it's an evil institution that deserves to be reviled as much as fascism is. @#$% Karl Marx, and may he rot in hell forever.


Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

ruveyn


Pretty much this. If I could do a chart here the Y Axis (vertical) would be growth and the X axis (horizontal) would be efficiency. As efficiency goes up so does growth or innovation of you prefer. However, human workers are not efficient nor practical. If possible all workers should be replaced with highly advanced virtual intelligences that can do the job better, at lower costs with less mistakes.

Efficiency is degrees of brutality, its why China is so effective because they are a little bit more brutal than competing countries. If the government decides to build huge new factory areas, with ports, airports and other infrastructure, the people who live in that area are more or less told to f**k off.

So, in shorts its a trade off between growth and accommodating the needs of human capital, regardless of the fact that human capital is something that seems to never run out since humans have shown themselves to breed until resources run out, then come up with new ways to get more resources so they can breed more.

It depends on goals I suppose. I'd love to see us colonize the moon and explore much more of space before I die, odds are I won't because of inefficient use of resources and general stupidity.



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30 Apr 2012, 9:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

Sorry, "Think of the children!" is not a valid excuse to let the government start meddling in a free market. Human beings should be free to engage in the kinds of commercial relationships between each other they find fitting. There may be child labor going on in developing countries, but these children are still better off than without the benefice of capitalist exchange; otherwise, they and their families would be literally starving to death. Why not let the invisible hand of the free market decide what safe working conditions are and what a minimum wage should be instead of letting some Washington bureaucrat decide? Maybe what's not safe for one individual is perfectly safe for another, more skilled individual. The government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers.



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30 Apr 2012, 9:20 pm

so I don't really belive in god or anything but heres something I remember a member of one of my favorite bands Iron Maiden saying. "If you like our music god bless you, If you hate our music god bless you just the same." so I would like to extend this to all you anti-marxists. If you don't like my opinions cool, if you do cool....after all everyone has a different way to veiw the world.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 30 Apr 2012, 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

androbot2084
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30 Apr 2012, 9:46 pm

You want god to bless Ebeneezer Scrooge?



techstepgenr8tion
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30 Apr 2012, 9:54 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
so I don't really belive in god or anything but heres something I remember a member of one of my favorite bands Iron Maiden saying. "If you like our music god bless you, If you hate our music god bless you just the same." so I would like to extend this to all you anti-marxists. If you don't like my opinions cool, if you do cool....after all everyone has a different way to veiw the world.


I actually think *most* Marxists are incredibly kind-hearted people and they hold their belief with the best of intentions. Opinions just vary over the end results.


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abacacus
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30 Apr 2012, 9:54 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

Sorry, "Think of the children!" is not a valid excuse to let the government start meddling in a free market. Human beings should be free to engage in the kinds of commercial relationships between each other they find fitting. There may be child labor going on in developing countries, but these children are still better off than without the benefice of capitalist exchange; otherwise, they and their families would be literally starving to death. Why not let the invisible hand of the free market decide what safe working conditions are and what a minimum wage should be instead of letting some Washington bureaucrat decide? Maybe what's not safe for one individual is perfectly safe for another, more skilled individual. The government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers.


If you like a pure Capatalist system so much, why not move to one? Somalia would be perfect for you.

You are aware that without said government meddling, you would likely be dead by now from being forced to work with dangerous chemicals from a very young age with no safety gear? You're being remarkably short sighted.


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Sweetleaf
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30 Apr 2012, 9:56 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
You want god to bless Ebeneezer Scrooge?


most certainly I mean he could use a good blessing as well as a drink.


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01 May 2012, 6:37 am

ruveyn wrote:
Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

ruveyn



Yes when socialist elements are combined with capitalism it makes capitalism a little safer......and less able to create sweat shops in the U.S, however that is not to say we cant have all the sweat shops we want in third world countries. The laws to help deal with such things=socialism being combined with capitalism or at least the whole element of government regulation of the economy.


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01 May 2012, 7:03 am

abacacus wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

Sorry, "Think of the children!" is not a valid excuse to let the government start meddling in a free market. Human beings should be free to engage in the kinds of commercial relationships between each other they find fitting. There may be child labor going on in developing countries, but these children are still better off than without the benefice of capitalist exchange; otherwise, they and their families would be literally starving to death. Why not let the invisible hand of the free market decide what safe working conditions are and what a minimum wage should be instead of letting some Washington bureaucrat decide? Maybe what's not safe for one individual is perfectly safe for another, more skilled individual. The government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers.


If you like a pure Capatalist system so much, why not move to one? Somalia would be perfect for you.

You are aware that without said government meddling, you would likely be dead by now from being forced to work with dangerous chemicals from a very young age with no safety gear? You're being remarkably short sighted.


a rather odd post by Neant, I believe he might be attempting sarcasm but maybe he's had a change of heart?

but nonsense saying Somalia is some sort of example of 'pure capitalism' or some example of what limited government would be like here. Not many people know this apparently but Somalia is the way it is now as a result of the collapse of it's communist dictatorship. Somalia isn't so bad either, I'd much rather live there than most of it's immediate neighbors in that part of Africa who have notoriously corrupt and brutally oppressive leadership from their oh so helpful central government. Outside of the south of Somalia where Mogadishu is located, the country is actually fairly stable and has functioning local government. By almost all measures, Somalia is better off today than they were back under the ironfisted rule of their communist government. Who's to say we wouldn't be better off as well?



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01 May 2012, 8:35 am

Jacoby wrote:

a rather odd post by Neant, I believe he might be attempting sarcasm but maybe he's had a change of heart?

but nonsense saying Somalia is some sort of example of 'pure capitalism' or some example of what limited government would be like here. Not many people know this apparently but Somalia is the way it is now as a result of the collapse of it's communist dictatorship. Somalia isn't so bad either, I'd much rather live there than most of it's immediate neighbors in that part of Africa who have notoriously corrupt and brutally oppressive leadership from their oh so helpful central government. Outside of the south of Somalia where Mogadishu is located, the country is actually fairly stable and has functioning local government. By almost all measures, Somalia is better off today than they were back under the ironfisted rule of their communist government. Who's to say we wouldn't be better off as well?


I used Somalia because it is a country many see as being a hell hole. Any third world country will do.

Somalia is also a great example of what I was talking about in my first post in this thread. Communism on a large scale will, unfortunately, never work.


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01 May 2012, 1:03 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
At least outside the United States, the pinkos have the balls to say they're commies and socialists. Here, our pinkos cower behind the labels liberal and progressive. Bullshit! Obviously our liberals have never read Ludwig von Mises or Friedrich Hayek, or else they'd know liberals believe in freedom, not some pinko welfare state; and real progressivism died in this country with good ole Teddy Roosevelt.

It's funny anyone even bothers to call themselves a Marxist anymore.

Teddy was a macho gun-toting trust-busting pinko that could gain the respect of real red-blooded Americans. Scary proposition indeed. Thank God his movement is dead and the left has been replaced with ineffectual pantywaist dreamers, academics, and other morally degenerate scum that no patriotic God-fearing American will pay the time of day to.

Oh, I almost forgot...

:roll:



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01 May 2012, 1:09 pm

Jacoby wrote:
abacacus wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

Sorry, "Think of the children!" is not a valid excuse to let the government start meddling in a free market. Human beings should be free to engage in the kinds of commercial relationships between each other they find fitting. There may be child labor going on in developing countries, but these children are still better off than without the benefice of capitalist exchange; otherwise, they and their families would be literally starving to death. Why not let the invisible hand of the free market decide what safe working conditions are and what a minimum wage should be instead of letting some Washington bureaucrat decide? Maybe what's not safe for one individual is perfectly safe for another, more skilled individual. The government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers.


If you like a pure Capatalist system so much, why not move to one? Somalia would be perfect for you.

You are aware that without said government meddling, you would likely be dead by now from being forced to work with dangerous chemicals from a very young age with no safety gear? You're being remarkably short sighted.


a rather odd post by Neant, I believe he might be attempting sarcasm but maybe he's had a change of heart?


Nah. Don't get your hopes up. He's the Steven Colbert of PPR.



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01 May 2012, 1:30 pm

ruveyn wrote:
over9000 wrote:
I'm probably the most staunch anticommunist on this site. Communism is, at best, an ideal sprung from the mind of a drug addled hippie, at worst, it's an evil institution that deserves to be reviled as much as fascism is. @#$% Karl Marx, and may he rot in hell forever.


Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

ruveyn


The problem now is that the developed world is going to go bankrupt because our workers are not willing to compete with the brutal "old school" capitalism which still exists in the developing world. Of course if workers of the first world are forced to compete with the third world we'll become third world as well and the corporations depending on us for being their consumer base will then have nobody to do business with. Hmmm... Sounds like unmitigated self-interest and exploitation on the part of global capitalists is in the long run bad for capitalism itself. A lot of capitalists realize this themselves and have thus decided it is in their own best interest collectively to pay workers enough to have a thriving middle class. Of course, they also realize they don't have to pay people a living wage in developed countries where the government provides assistance to people whose income is insufficient.



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01 May 2012, 2:19 pm

marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
abacacus wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Marx was enraged by some of the unjust effects of the capitalistic system. The capitalism you know and prefer is nothing like the capitalist system that existed in Marx time. It produced sweat shops, unsafe working conditions, a certain amount of ill health and even death. The capitalism we now enjoy is constrained by safety and health regulations that did not exist when Marx was alive. Karl Marx and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries.

Marx had a love-hate relation with capitalism. He was overwhelmed by the rapid technological progress produced by capitalism. He was appalled at the heartless treatment of children and workers before there were laws to deal with such extremes. Without laws to constrain capitalism it would be as brutal as any communist system.

Sorry, "Think of the children!" is not a valid excuse to let the government start meddling in a free market. Human beings should be free to engage in the kinds of commercial relationships between each other they find fitting. There may be child labor going on in developing countries, but these children are still better off than without the benefice of capitalist exchange; otherwise, they and their families would be literally starving to death. Why not let the invisible hand of the free market decide what safe working conditions are and what a minimum wage should be instead of letting some Washington bureaucrat decide? Maybe what's not safe for one individual is perfectly safe for another, more skilled individual. The government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers.


If you like a pure Capatalist system so much, why not move to one? Somalia would be perfect for you.

You are aware that without said government meddling, you would likely be dead by now from being forced to work with dangerous chemicals from a very young age with no safety gear? You're being remarkably short sighted.


a rather odd post by Neant, I believe he might be attempting sarcasm but maybe he's had a change of heart?


Nah. Don't get your hopes up. He's the Steven Colbert of PPR.


I'm waiting for the punchline