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Deinonychus
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03 May 2012, 4:29 pm

This is one of my pet subjects so I'm posting about it again in the hope that someone out there may be concerned about the same issue or be able to relate to it. I have several unofficial "diagnoses" of ASD and usually operate on the assumption that they are correct. So far so good. However I am also extremely introverted and tend to isolate myself whenever possible. Usually I only have one friend (at present and for the last ten years just a girlfriend) and that one friend I don't need to see more than one day a week. So my social circle is tiny in the extreme. I prefer being by myself because it is much less demanding than having social contacts and I can do what I want if I am by myself (ie focus on my SI). If I have absolutely nobody I feel bad but one person is enough for me as social circle. The problem is that I have read that that is characteristically schizoid. It is also characteristically schizoid to find social interactions tiring and to some extent unrewarding (which I do) as well as to take pleasure in few activities (I like to just sit at home with my special interest). So I seem to meet the criteria for schizoid personality disorder and to have met these criteria for decades. Whenever I read discussions on forums of the relation of ASD to schizoid personality disorder they always say "Oh, that's easy. With schizoid personality disorder you don't stim or have obsessive special interests and aspies are often sociable whereas schizoids aren't". The problem is that that doesn't help at all because I stim (classic autism stims), have had a ridiculously obsessive narrow interest for 35 years which has consumed my whole life and am not sociable, which makes the distinction I have just quoted irrelevant because I would belong in both camps. When I look at the DSM it is really easy to meet the criteria for schizoid personality disorder - you just need to meet three of the seven or so criteria. So at the moment I am thinking of myself as having some features of ASD with some kind of built-in schizoidness as a manifestation of the ASD, because apart from social withdrawal I don't have any of the other characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, such as flattened effect and a lack of interest in having a romantic partner, for example. I don't know if any of you out there are grappling with the same sort of dilemma. I have the address of a psychologist who I hope may be able to do a differential diagnosis but I'm not sure they'll be able to do any better than me. Any thoughts or stories?



starkid
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03 May 2012, 6:35 pm

I am in a somewhat similar position, except I am much less certain that I have AS. I clearly have some traits, but probably not enough to get diagnosed, and I can't remember having them as a child, although maybe I was just oblivious...or they somehow worsened? Don't know if that's possible. I was diagnosed SPD, although I also want a romantic partner, but I suppose I tend to have somewhat blunted affect, and I definitely prefer doing many things alone and do not want many people in my life beyond the girlfriend.

My AS traits are mild. The strongest is lack of eye contact, followed by verbal stimming that I only do when I have to deal with unwanted interpersonal contact and very rare rocking (although I seem to be doing it a lot more lately, which is really strange and confusing), but I can control those. From what I've read, I seem to mostly have what I call "soft" traits - things that are not really in the DSM, but are typically associated with AS. My friend went to an autism conference where a woman with AS spoke about some typical traits - preferring firm touch, sensitivity to sunlight ( I get migraines), and more random stuff like considering sleeping and eating to be a waste of time (in relation to special interests, I assume), and she was surprised that I had nearly all the traits mentioned.

But I am mostly convinced that I don't have AS because I hate routines, do not have obsessive interests (although I can get temporarily obsessed - like, I will spend 8 hours working on something during a single day, but not every day), I think my theory of mind is ok (but maybe that just happened as I matured), and I haven't had much trouble with taking things literally.

I do kind of feel a little confused about it though. Sometimes I go back and forth, wondering.


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Kalika
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04 May 2012, 1:07 pm

My thoughts..........the last time I was seeing a therapist, she couldn't pinpoint exactly what was "wrong" with me, but suspected schizo-typical personality disorder. Since then, various family members have gotten the feeling that real diagnosis could be AS, this being after my sister had done in-home therapy for autistic children. (she was taking child development classes in college)



archraphael
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04 May 2012, 1:56 pm

my 2cents..

schizoid is theoretically, caused by a poor attachment to parents, especially mother, and therefore cascades into poor social relationships, by CHOICE... schizoids tend to be NT's with fairly good social skills but CHOOSE to live a more solitary life

the overlap is monotone voice and social avoidance. i do believe a lot of children with autism labels have poor relationships to their parents because the parents did not know what to do, became disillusioned, or flat out REJECT their child with autism/aspergers for being "different"

in my case i was felt rejected by my mother, and at times left me alone when i needed her, and at times smothered me when i didnt.

imo we all have traits of some "disorder" label but in the end we're just humans..
i know some autistic people who are well socialized and can hold relationships and are good at voice inflection, extraverted, etc
then i know some NT's who are introverted, have "schizoid" personalities, monotone voice, etc


i know some older autistics, they are usually better at voice inflection and socializing. imo the older gen of autistics tend to be less schizoid and better socialized. i believe with the lack of family bonds in y2k generations, makes people with asperger/autism seem more schizoid.

ok... done ranting.. :)



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04 May 2012, 3:34 pm

archraphael wrote:
my 2cents..

schizoid is theoretically, caused by a poor attachment to parents, especially mother, and therefore cascades into poor social relationships, by CHOICE... schizoids tend to be NT's with fairly good social skills but CHOOSE to live a more solitary life

the overlap is monotone voice and social avoidance. i do believe a lot of children with autism labels have poor relationships to their parents because the parents did not know what to do, became disillusioned, or flat out REJECT their child with autism/aspergers for being "different"

in my case i was felt rejected by my mother, and at times left me alone when i needed her, and at times smothered me when i didnt.

imo we all have traits of some "disorder" label but in the end we're just humans..
i know some autistic people who are well socialized and can hold relationships and are good at voice inflection, extraverted, etc
then i know some NT's who are introverted, have "schizoid" personalities, monotone voice, etc


i know some older autistics, they are usually better at voice inflection and socializing. imo the older gen of autistics tend to be less schizoid and better socialized. i believe with the lack of family bonds in y2k generations, makes people with asperger/autism seem more schizoid.

ok... done ranting.. :)


I agree that it is caused by a bad relationship with parents. Its a person's first environment, living with their family. If it doesn't work there, then how is it going to work in the world? If it doesn't work, then it's only logical that the person won't take to other people as eagerly. In that light, it's not a disorder at all, it's actually, the outcome of a logical person. The disorder comes in when they can't mesh with society to the point that it hurts them. But if they get along fine with their schizoid personality, then it shouldn't be viewed as a disorder.


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04 May 2012, 4:21 pm

I have to admit I have wondered about SPD. I would qualify for at least 6 of the criteria if you ignore my AS type symptoms. I believe most people with an ASD also show schizoid tendencies. In my case they were probably made worse by bullying etc as a kid.


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04 May 2012, 6:47 pm

snapcap wrote:
archraphael wrote:
my 2cents..

schizoid is theoretically, caused by a poor attachment to parents, especially mother, and therefore cascades into poor social relationships, by CHOICE... schizoids tend to be NT's with fairly good social skills but CHOOSE to live a more solitary life

the overlap is monotone voice and social avoidance. i do believe a lot of children with autism labels have poor relationships to their parents because the parents did not know what to do, became disillusioned, or flat out REJECT their child with autism/aspergers for being "different"

in my case i was felt rejected by my mother, and at times left me alone when i needed her, and at times smothered me when i didnt.

imo we all have traits of some "disorder" label but in the end we're just humans..
i know some autistic people who are well socialized and can hold relationships and are good at voice inflection, extraverted, etc
then i know some NT's who are introverted, have "schizoid" personalities, monotone voice, etc


i know some older autistics, they are usually better at voice inflection and socializing. imo the older gen of autistics tend to be less schizoid and better socialized. i believe with the lack of family bonds in y2k generations, makes people with asperger/autism seem more schizoid.

ok... done ranting.. :)


I agree that it is caused by a bad relationship with parents. Its a person's first environment, living with their family. If it doesn't work there, then how is it going to work in the world? If it doesn't work, then it's only logical that the person won't take to other people as eagerly. In that light, it's not a disorder at all, it's actually, the outcome of a logical person. The disorder comes in when they can't mesh with society to the point that it hurts them. But if they get along fine with their schizoid personality, then it shouldn't be viewed as a disorder.


I certainly have schizoid traits (along with the ASD ones) but I am reluctant to blame my parents for them. Plenty of people have lousy parents without becoming schizoid, I would think. My father was always telling me to come downstairs and be sociable when I was in my room stimming for hours to be in my autistic world, so I don't think he'd be too happy to be blamed for my unsociableness, since he tried to prevent it as far as I allowed him to (which I didn't).



psych
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05 May 2012, 8:20 pm

i seem to be some sort of aspie/avoidant/schizoid hydrid.

Im not autistic according to the ADI-R criteria - i barely score in the 'language & communication' section (pronous reversal, neologisms etc in infancy) i could do imaginative play and showing things of interst - yet i clearly have social issues specific to AS as well as many soft traits such as hypersensitivity.
(its possible i might meet the criteria for NVLD, but i dont think that diagnosis exists in the UK)

Im not 'pure schizoid' either, as i think i used to have the yearning for social contact. Ive been reading around PDs recently, and it seems that with people who are avoidant can eventually morph into an intermediate schizoid. One site suggests that obsessives can go that way also (I have the misfortune to be both). So its not necessarily always a parental influence.

So i currently have no idea whether my condition is neurological/psychological. I was recently assessed as not being autistic, but thats just opened up more questions. Am i broken? Can i be healed? Most of all: does this get worse?

And now, annoyingly, i have to undergo a harsh sham of an 'eligibility for disabled welfare review' with no official diagnosis whatsoever to back up most of my symptoms.



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05 May 2012, 11:15 pm

psych wrote:
t seems that with people who are avoidant can eventually morph into an intermediate schizoid. One site suggests that obsessives can go that way also (I have the misfortune to be both). So its not necessarily always a parental influence.


It said that people with obsessions can develop personality disorders?


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psych
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06 May 2012, 7:51 am

starkid wrote:
psych wrote:
t seems that with people who are avoidant can eventually morph into an intermediate schizoid. One site suggests that obsessives can go that way also (I have the misfortune to be both). So its not necessarily always a parental influence.


It said that people with obsessions can develop personality disorders?


well here is where i read it. the obsessive-schizoid link is far less clear to me than the avoidant-schizoid which makes total sense, and no explantion is given. i just thought id mention it.

http://www.schizoids.info/schizoid-asperger.html
http://www.schizoids.info/avoidant.html

i think by 'obsessives' he probably means where itsspecifically a result of a personality warp, rather than a PDD. So personality disorders can shift and blend into one another and often people end up with components of different disorders.



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06 May 2012, 11:47 am

psych wrote:
i seem to be some sort of aspie/avoidant/schizoid hydrid.


Same here, except I've outgrown the avoidant bit (or it morphed into schizoid, I'm not sure).


One of the problems with deciding whether one is schizoid or not is the fact that, unlike AS, there is so little personal information about it and nobody on YouTube who sits there and says they are schizoid and how they experience life, so one can't compare. There is just so much more information on AS, but a lot of the AS people here and on YouTube describe things which I always thought were pretty schizoid phenomena. Here in Germany a lot of the people who get tested for AS are given a schizoid diagnosis instead 8O .



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06 May 2012, 3:20 pm

Schizoids have anger outbursts???? Please answer :o


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AnotherKind
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06 May 2012, 3:23 pm

Halligeninseln wrote:
Here in Germany a lot of the people who get tested for AS are given a schizoid diagnosis instead 8O .


This happens in my country too.


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Deinonychus
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06 May 2012, 4:48 pm

AnotherKind wrote:
Halligeninseln wrote:
Here in Germany a lot of the people who get tested for AS are given a schizoid diagnosis instead 8O .


This happens in my country too.


Which country is your country?

As regards your question about anger outbursts I don't know about schizoids. I imagine they are fairly restrained because in the criteria I think it says they have problems expressing emotion. For me personally it goes as follows: I am often really stressed out inwardly because things don't go my way (this happens on a daily basis) but I suppress my frustration and stress (because I had a father who let his anger out on us and I don't want to be like him because I found it terrible and also a disgrace that he couldn't control himself). However, once in a while (once a year) something will happen which takes me over the edge and I flip out verbally with total strangers in a reckless way which leaves everyone wondering if they are dealing with a child or an adult. But I don't know if I'm a schizoid so don't take me as an example.



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06 May 2012, 11:11 pm

Halligeninseln wrote:
This is one of my pet subjects so I'm posting about it again in the hope that someone out there may be concerned about the same issue or be able to relate to it. I have several unofficial "diagnoses" of ASD and usually operate on the assumption that they are correct. So far so good. However I am also extremely introverted and tend to isolate myself whenever possible. Usually I only have one friend (at present and for the last ten years just a girlfriend) and that one friend I don't need to see more than one day a week. So my social circle is tiny in the extreme. I prefer being by myself because it is much less demanding than having social contacts and I can do what I want if I am by myself (ie focus on my SI). If I have absolutely nobody I feel bad but one person is enough for me as social circle. The problem is that I have read that that is characteristically schizoid. It is also characteristically schizoid to find social interactions tiring and to some extent unrewarding (which I do) as well as to take pleasure in few activities (I like to just sit at home with my special interest). So I seem to meet the criteria for schizoid personality disorder and to have met these criteria for decades. Whenever I read discussions on forums of the relation of ASD to schizoid personality disorder they always say "Oh, that's easy. With schizoid personality disorder you don't stim or have obsessive special interests and aspies are often sociable whereas schizoids aren't". The problem is that that doesn't help at all because I stim (classic autism stims), have had a ridiculously obsessive narrow interest for 35 years which has consumed my whole life and am not sociable, which makes the distinction I have just quoted irrelevant because I would belong in both camps. When I look at the DSM it is really easy to meet the criteria for schizoid personality disorder - you just need to meet three of the seven or so criteria. So at the moment I am thinking of myself as having some features of ASD with some kind of built-in schizoidness as a manifestation of the ASD, because apart from social withdrawal I don't have any of the other characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, such as flattened effect and a lack of interest in having a romantic partner, for example. I don't know if any of you out there are grappling with the same sort of dilemma. I have the address of a psychologist who I hope may be able to do a differential diagnosis but I'm not sure they'll be able to do any better than me. Any thoughts or stories?



I've learned here at WP that these manifestations do overlap: for example not all with an ASD have all of the symptoms out of the DSM criteria, nor the 'sensory problems'-- it's mix of many to few in this sundry bag. It is not a true one universal expression, and one can have undiagnosable "traits" of many to few.

I myself do have diagnosable ADHD but with undiagnosable AS. I do fit the "narrow interest" category easily, and I do stim, myself -- rocking, pacing, etc. -- all relatively mild.

The infamous theory of mind impairment I fit somewhat,. but outgrew that. And early on in my life had a relatively mild "central coherence" problem that 'Ive worked very hard on and made good progress with it.

From reading your life's account I do see schizoid via the intimacy problems. I dont see the social fatigue as fitting it exclusively because this is normal for general introverts. And you seemed to fit the narrow interests. I've done considerable research into schizoid and ruled that out due to normal intimacy. In my family I have diagnosed schizophrenic relatives-- this made my schizoid suspicions relevant but it doesn't fit in any way.

I see no quandary with quasi expressions.



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07 May 2012, 3:35 am

Halligeninseln wrote:
Which country is your country?


Romania.

Halligeninseln wrote:
As regards your question about anger outbursts I don't know about schizoids. I imagine they are fairly restrained because in the criteria I think it says they have problems expressing emotion. For me personally it goes as follows: I am often really stressed out inwardly because things don't go my way (this happens on a daily basis) but I suppress my frustration and stress (because I had a father who let his anger out on us and I don't want to be like him because I found it terrible and also a disgrace that he couldn't control himself). However, once in a while (once a year) something will happen which takes me over the edge and I flip out verbally with total strangers in a reckless way which leaves everyone wondering if they are dealing with a child or an adult. But I don't know if I'm a schizoid so don't take me as an example.


I'm asking because sometimes i have really terrible anger outbursts, i'm starting yelling, crying, swearing - mostly when people try to change me, make fun of me or when they are criticizing me. And i started to be really worried because it's very hard for me to control these meltdowns and my mother want to put me on medications (also, i have no friends and i don't like people). My father was also diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was young but now his psychiatrist told he might have been misdiagnosed and have autism instead. Really, i don't know what to believe, when i'm reading about all these mental issues and personality disorders, i can easily identify almost in all of them. :/


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