how to avoid being used?
hartzofspace
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29 May 2012, 3:17 pm
edgewaters wrote:
Sometimes, people enter into one of these situations thinking they can eventually maneuver the other party into a relationship. They suffer frustration and anxiety from the tension of being around the person but not getting what they want. They have deceived themselves and the other party, and naturally this will result in suffering. This isn't a result of being "used" it's a result of the false pretenses they entered with, and the self-deceit. They don't believe or respect the other person's boundaries. The fault there isn't with the other person.
This is what happened with my fiance and a long ago relationship. He said that they were basically FWBs for a year, then he went away to university. When he returned home years later, his ex was single and they started dating again. She then made it clear that she expected him to marry her, but he wasn't at all interested in marriage, had never bought up the subject either. So she broke off with him in a rage.
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The_Face_of_Boo
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hartzofspace
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Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,138
Location: On the Road Less Traveled
29 May 2012, 3:36 pm
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I can relate to 2, i faced this a lot.
In what way did you face this if you don't mind me asking?
_________________
Dreams are renewable. No matter what our age or condition, there are still untapped possibilities within us and new beauty waiting to be born.
-- Dr. Dale Turner
29 May 2012, 3:46 pm
rabbittss wrote:
See this is what I've always suspected.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
I'd say the platonic friend zone is worse. At least a girl in the f.ck buddy zone gets to sleep with and have fun with someone she's sexually attracted to. A guy in the "friend zone" only gets downgraded to her asexual little girlfriend and ungratefully gets her problems dumped onto him.
29 May 2012, 3:58 pm
edgewaters wrote:
Neither friends, nor friends with benefits, is being "used" provided there's no attempt at deceipt and everyone understands and accepts the nature of things.
Sometimes, people enter into one of these situations thinking they can eventually maneuver the other party into a relationship. They suffer frustration and anxiety from the tension of being around the person but not getting what they want. They have deceived themselves and the other party, and naturally this will result in suffering. This isn't a result of being "used" it's a result of the false pretenses they entered with, and the self-deceit. They don't believe or respect the other person's boundaries. The fault there isn't with the other person.
Sometimes, people enter into one of these situations thinking they can eventually maneuver the other party into a relationship. They suffer frustration and anxiety from the tension of being around the person but not getting what they want. They have deceived themselves and the other party, and naturally this will result in suffering. This isn't a result of being "used" it's a result of the false pretenses they entered with, and the self-deceit. They don't believe or respect the other person's boundaries. The fault there isn't with the other person.
That may be part of it, but you are doing a really good job of blaming the victim here.
If there was a clear understanding that there was nothing else in the offing, then people wouldn't have anything to deceive themselves into believing.
Kurgan wrote:
I'd say the platonic friend zone is worse. At least a girl in the f.ck buddy zone gets to sleep with and have fun with someone she's sexually attracted to. A guy in the "friend zone" only gets downgraded to her asexual little girlfriend and ungratefully gets her problems dumped onto him.
I don't know about that, they are both bad in their own ways. I've known lots of girls who think of sex as something you only do with some one you care about and it therefore is wrong or they perceive it as wrong if that condition of mutual caring for one another doesn't exist.
The aspect of both of them that is wrong in my view, is that there is the carrot on the end of the stick for something more if you will just jump through whatever hoop they want you to.
29 May 2012, 4:16 pm
Kurgan wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
See this is what I've always suspected.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
I'd say the platonic friend zone is worse. At least a girl in the f.ck buddy zone gets to sleep with and have fun with someone she's sexually attracted to. A guy in the "friend zone" only gets downgraded to her asexual little girlfriend and ungratefully gets her problems dumped onto him.
because you have an easier time empathizing with men than women
any relationship based on lies or misrepresentation in the interest of manipulating another person is wrong, no matter what the end goal of the manipulation is
_________________
If your success is defined as being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference, then we don?t want successful leaders. We want great leaders- who are unbought, unbound, unafraid, and unintimidated to tell the truth.
29 May 2012, 4:28 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
See this is what I've always suspected.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
I'd say the platonic friend zone is worse. At least a girl in the f.ck buddy zone gets to sleep with and have fun with someone she's sexually attracted to. A guy in the "friend zone" only gets downgraded to her asexual little girlfriend and ungratefully gets her problems dumped onto him.
because you have an easier time empathizing with men than women
any relationship based on lies or misrepresentation in the interest of manipulating another person is wrong, no matter what the end goal of the manipulation is
If a girl was being used for emotional toilet paper and her romantic interest called her in the middle of the night to b!tch about how the girl he's sleeping with left the toilet seat down, to imply that the girl now owes him a relationship or to complain that "all women are the same", I'd gladly empatize with her. Especially if he told her "I wish more girls were like you" or led her on with flirting.
Actually, most guys who aren't interested in more than a friend with benefits don't hint about more either. That's why the girl often wonders what the guy wants. If your in the FWB zone, you get most of the good parts (sex, going to concerts, watching movies together etc.) from a relationship without getting any of the bad parts. The guy who's being used for emotional toilet paper gets all the bad parts.
29 May 2012, 4:35 pm
Kurgan wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
See this is what I've always suspected.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
I'd say the platonic friend zone is worse. At least a girl in the f.ck buddy zone gets to sleep with and have fun with someone she's sexually attracted to. A guy in the "friend zone" only gets downgraded to her asexual little girlfriend and ungratefully gets her problems dumped onto him.
because you have an easier time empathizing with men than women
any relationship based on lies or misrepresentation in the interest of manipulating another person is wrong, no matter what the end goal of the manipulation is
If a girl was being used for emotional toilet paper and her romantic interest called her in the middle of the night to b!tch about how the girl he's sleeping with left the toilet seat down, to imply that the girl now owes him a relationship or to complain that "all women are the same", I'd gladly empatize with her. Especially if he told her "I wish more girls were like you" or led her on with flirting.
Actually, most guys who aren't interested in more than a friend with benefits don't hint about more either. That's why the girl often wonders what the guy wants. If your in the FWB zone, you get most of the good parts (sex, going to concerts, watching movies together etc.) from a relationship without getting any of the bad parts. The guy who's being used for emotional toilet paper gets all the bad parts.
you're assigning "good" "bad" values to things that other people might not assign themselves, there are a lot of assumptions here
lying to someone to procure sex is wrong, no less wrong than lying to someone to procure any other thing
_________________
If your success is defined as being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference, then we don?t want successful leaders. We want great leaders- who are unbought, unbound, unafraid, and unintimidated to tell the truth.
29 May 2012, 4:52 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
See this is what I've always suspected.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
This is the equivalent of the "Friend-zone" but for women..
Both of them are nebulous status's that only exist because one party is either to oblivious or to hopeful to see that the other party is taking advantage of them in some way for a period of time. Some people will catch on right away, and move on. Others will take a long time to catch on, and then be more hurt by the revelation.
Both of these phenomena are equally bad because it means you are being taken advantage of in some way, while the other party is maintaining the facade that an actual relationship is always just around the bend.
I'd say the platonic friend zone is worse. At least a girl in the f.ck buddy zone gets to sleep with and have fun with someone she's sexually attracted to. A guy in the "friend zone" only gets downgraded to her asexual little girlfriend and ungratefully gets her problems dumped onto him.
because you have an easier time empathizing with men than women
any relationship based on lies or misrepresentation in the interest of manipulating another person is wrong, no matter what the end goal of the manipulation is
If a girl was being used for emotional toilet paper and her romantic interest called her in the middle of the night to b!tch about how the girl he's sleeping with left the toilet seat down, to imply that the girl now owes him a relationship or to complain that "all women are the same", I'd gladly empatize with her. Especially if he told her "I wish more girls were like you" or led her on with flirting.
Actually, most guys who aren't interested in more than a friend with benefits don't hint about more either. That's why the girl often wonders what the guy wants. If your in the FWB zone, you get most of the good parts (sex, going to concerts, watching movies together etc.) from a relationship without getting any of the bad parts. The guy who's being used for emotional toilet paper gets all the bad parts.
you're assigning "good" "bad" values to things that other people might not assign themselves, there are a lot of assumptions here
lying to someone to procure sex is wrong, no less wrong than lying to someone to procure any other thing
The problem is that the FWB doesn't usually lie; he rarely promises her a relationship. Often, the girl will sleep with him well aware of this.
Here's a crude, but very good analogy:
Let's say that there's a red Corvette down the street with no owner. The f.ck buddy (whether said person is male or female) gets to use the car whenever he/she wants to, without having to worry about the road tax, the gas prices, costly repairs, maintenance or anything like that. The car's emotional toilet paper pays for the vehicle inspection, the road tax, the oil and basically gets all the bad aspects of car ownership without ever getting to use the car, while still being led to believe that some day, he'll/she'll get to drive it.
29 May 2012, 5:03 pm
Kurgan wrote:
The problem is that the FWB doesn't usually lie; he rarely promises her a relationship. Often, the girl will sleep with him well aware of this.
Here's a crude, but very good analogy:
Let's say that there's a red Corvette down the street with no owner. The f.ck buddy (whether said person is male or female) gets to use the car whenever he/she wants to, without having to worry about the road tax, the gas prices, costly repairs, maintenance or anything like that. The car's emotional toilet paper pays for the vehicle inspection, the road tax, the oil and basically gets all the bad aspects of car ownership without ever getting to use the car, while still being led to believe that some day, he'll/she'll get to drive it.
That is a mega huge often untrue assumption. Also you're still pushing sex as universally positive, and emotional involvement as negative, or a chore.
_________________
If your success is defined as being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference, then we don?t want successful leaders. We want great leaders- who are unbought, unbound, unafraid, and unintimidated to tell the truth.
29 May 2012, 5:12 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
The problem is that the FWB doesn't usually lie; he rarely promises her a relationship. Often, the girl will sleep with him well aware of this.
Here's a crude, but very good analogy:
Let's say that there's a red Corvette down the street with no owner. The f.ck buddy (whether said person is male or female) gets to use the car whenever he/she wants to, without having to worry about the road tax, the gas prices, costly repairs, maintenance or anything like that. The car's emotional toilet paper pays for the vehicle inspection, the road tax, the oil and basically gets all the bad aspects of car ownership without ever getting to use the car, while still being led to believe that some day, he'll/she'll get to drive it.
That is a mega huge often untrue assumption. Also you're still pushing sex as universally positive, and emotional involvement as negative, or a chore.
Sex with consent (if one of the parts are intoxicated it's not consensual), is positive. Emotional involvement that's just used to boost someone's ego is work. If work does not grant you any payoff (it doesn't have to be sex) or if it's not it's own reward (eg. helping someone who you KNOW would have done the same for you), it's bad.
A girl in the FWB zone doesn't know how lucky she is. She still gets the next best thing (the best if she's studying something very time consuming at her university) even though she's rejected for a relationship.
29 May 2012, 5:19 pm
Kurgan wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
The problem is that the FWB doesn't usually lie; he rarely promises her a relationship. Often, the girl will sleep with him well aware of this.
Here's a crude, but very good analogy:
Let's say that there's a red Corvette down the street with no owner. The f.ck buddy (whether said person is male or female) gets to use the car whenever he/she wants to, without having to worry about the road tax, the gas prices, costly repairs, maintenance or anything like that. The car's emotional toilet paper pays for the vehicle inspection, the road tax, the oil and basically gets all the bad aspects of car ownership without ever getting to use the car, while still being led to believe that some day, he'll/she'll get to drive it.
That is a mega huge often untrue assumption. Also you're still pushing sex as universally positive, and emotional involvement as negative, or a chore.
Sex with consent (if one of the parts are intoxicated it's not consensual), is positive. Emotional involvement that's just used to boost someone's ego is work. If work does not grant you any payoff (it doesn't have to be sex) or if it's not it's own reward (eg. helping someone who you KNOW would have done the same for you), it's bad.
A girl in the FWB zone doesn't know how lucky she is. She still gets the next best thing (the best if she's studying something very time consuming at her university) even though she's rejected for a relationship.
you're projecting
Sex is complicated and is about a lot more than just the physical sensations for a lot of people
it doesn't matter how "good" a fwb relationship is if that's not what someone wants and it's not what they've been led to believe they have.
_________________
If your success is defined as being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference, then we don?t want successful leaders. We want great leaders- who are unbought, unbound, unafraid, and unintimidated to tell the truth.
29 May 2012, 5:21 pm
rabbittss wrote:
That may be part of it, but you are doing a really good job of blaming the victim here.
If there was a clear understanding that there was nothing else in the offing, then people wouldn't have anything to deceive themselves into believing.
If there was a clear understanding that there was nothing else in the offing, then people wouldn't have anything to deceive themselves into believing.
But they do. I mean, I've done it, so I know. I've been told there's nothing else in the offing straight up, and agreed to it while I was secretly hoping for more, and deceived myself into reading too much into things, and then got frustrated with the person because my false hopes were disappointed time and time again. I've come up with a word for this, I call it golluming. Verb, to gollum.
That's the nature of self-deceit and not taking people at their word and thinking you know better. Maybe I was the victim - but if so, I was the perpetrator, too. Nobody forced me into anything; at any time I could have accepted the boundaries were going to stay the way they were, accepted I couldn't handle it, said so, and walked.
Being someone's friend isn't victimizing them - getting into a victim mentality doesn't mean you actually are a victim, of anyone but yourself.
Last edited by edgewaters on 29 May 2012, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
29 May 2012, 5:23 pm
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
The problem is that the FWB doesn't usually lie; he rarely promises her a relationship. Often, the girl will sleep with him well aware of this.
Here's a crude, but very good analogy:
Let's say that there's a red Corvette down the street with no owner. The f.ck buddy (whether said person is male or female) gets to use the car whenever he/she wants to, without having to worry about the road tax, the gas prices, costly repairs, maintenance or anything like that. The car's emotional toilet paper pays for the vehicle inspection, the road tax, the oil and basically gets all the bad aspects of car ownership without ever getting to use the car, while still being led to believe that some day, he'll/she'll get to drive it.
That is a mega huge often untrue assumption. Also you're still pushing sex as universally positive, and emotional involvement as negative, or a chore.
Sex with consent (if one of the parts are intoxicated it's not consensual), is positive. Emotional involvement that's just used to boost someone's ego is work. If work does not grant you any payoff (it doesn't have to be sex) or if it's not it's own reward (eg. helping someone who you KNOW would have done the same for you), it's bad.
A girl in the FWB zone doesn't know how lucky she is. She still gets the next best thing (the best if she's studying something very time consuming at her university) even though she's rejected for a relationship.
you're projecting
Sex is complicated and is about a lot more than just the physical sensations for a lot of people
it doesn't matter how "good" a fwb relationship is if that's not what someone wants and it's not what they've been led to believe they have.
Sex is not at all complicated. It existed for 1.2 billion years without any obligations before relationships were "invented" some 6000 years ago.
hartzofspace
Supporting Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,138
Location: On the Road Less Traveled
29 May 2012, 5:28 pm
Men and women are different. I hate making generalizations so I have provided a link to an article. One reason that relationships based upon sex only have never been good enough for me is that I can't bring myself to sleep with someone just for the sake of physical sensations. I have to love them or be well on the way to it. There has to be a meeting of minds. I stayed celibate for many years because of this.
Here is why women feel burned when they realize that they have been delegated to the FB zone:
http://lovepsychics.com/love-help/chocolate-love.shtml
_________________
Dreams are renewable. No matter what our age or condition, there are still untapped possibilities within us and new beauty waiting to be born.
-- Dr. Dale Turner
29 May 2012, 5:29 pm
Kurgan wrote:
Sex is not at all complicated. It existed for 1.2 billion years without any obligations before relationships were "invented" some 6000 years ago.
*facepalm*
Pair-bonding exists in all mammals and even some other classes, relationships weren't "invented" 6k years ago. This is made-up nonsense.
