I wish I could say this to him

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waitykatie
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19 Jun 2012, 12:26 pm

. . . but I don't know if I should, or how much of it, or when I would even have the chance.

Many of you know the back story. I had a year-long romance with this AS guy 16 years ago. I left the country, returned, and we have slowly become friends over the last few years. We are both divorced. Our feelings and desire are as strong as they ever were. He has intimated repeatedly that I'm a better match for him than any of the others he wound up with. He agrees with me that we never should have let each other go.

3 months ago, he met me for lunch to explain that his divorce, which took 2 1/2 years, was finalized in December. We had planned to get physical, but he backed out. He said he had some kind of mental block, feels unsettled, and didn't want to just throw caution to the wind. I pointed out that taking up with me is the safest possible situation he could ask for. I could see that nothing would change his mind, at least that day, so I didn't push. Yet he seemed surprised, when I pointed out that he's all over the map, and changes his mind all the time.

There are two kids and visitation is going ok. They are important to him, but he seems to regard it as a duty or a chore rather than something he really looks forward to. His ex-wife is awful to him (ex-drug addict, current alcoholic), but he says dealing with her "can be managed." He is only very slowly accepting that she isn't a good person, and never was.

I've texted him a few times since then, but I've gotten no response. In the past, he has misinterpreted my requests for a little interaction as pressure, provoking a meltdown and wild overreaction - with exceedingly damaging results for me. So when I get no response, I'm silently thankful that I didn't get 3 paragraphs of grievously misplaced bile and vitriol, and wait at least a month or two before I try again.

But I have been waiting for years now, for him to get his act together. What I do not think he understands, and would like to say, is something like this:

Quote:
Month after month, year after year, I have been presenting you with an opportunity. But being patient doesn't work. Applying pressure doesn't work. Nothing works. I have set aside my own concerns and wants and needs to allow you the space to recover. You have needs that only a committed partner can meet, and I am willing and able to fill those roles. We have complementary strengths, and I would be an asset to you in many ways. I need a lot less than what you're used to, but you won't even toss me a crumb.

Instead, you force me to endure a painful, lonely, pointless wait as you give the gift of your time, your body, your resources, to people who don't care about you, and won't, no matter what you do. I thought a woman who is patient, accepting, tolerant, committed, constant, predictable, and genuinely loves you is exactly what you've always wanted. But you took me for granted and lost me back then, and it's about to happen again.

You think I am weak for being so kind and patient. What you don't see is the incredible strength it takes to restrain the volcano of anger, fury, and frustration that I do not direct at you, because you have endured enough of that. Because the screaming anger you are used to isn't a sign of strength, but a sign of weakness. I express my strength in the very self-restraint you dismiss as some kind of character flaw. In fact, what you are witnessing is a professional military officer who believes in "fire discipline." A woman who is compassionate and dignified - and increasingly pissed off and disgusted with you.

I've been through hard times too, and I am beyond ready to feel alive again. My life has changed. I no longer love my job or where I live, and I need something more, something new. I had hoped to do that with you. I want to make love, have fun, live life again. We made each other so happy back then, and I thought we could do that again. But it feels pointless. I am starting to suspect that you believe that whores, drug addicts, gold-diggers, and assorted abusive witches and lowlifes are your lot. And then you complain, when that's what you get stuck with. Life has a way of giving us exactly what we ask for.

You've rejected everything I've offered, and don't even know the half of it, because you won't communicate with me, you won't listen. You treat me as if I am no different from all the random women who have been so terrible to you, never considering that the real risk you are taking here, is losing the one who isn't. Again. You've denied me and said no to me 78,000 times, and given me every reason to expect that time #78,001 will be no different. It's true: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I know you want what I want, but you've wasted a lot of my time, and I'm losing respect for you. I am just about done waiting.


All this strikes me as very harsh, but it is genuinely how I feel. Does he need to know? If so, how do I get his attention?



mv
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19 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

I would send it, but that's me. I've grown increasingly frustrated for you with all of your threads and your responses to people in a similar situation. I think your Aspie's problem isn't just limitations due to being a kind-hearted Aspie but lots and lots of emotional abuse that he has no way of dealing with, regardless of how much patience and kindness you (or anyone) throw at him.

It's harsh to say, but he seems "done" to me. There is no fixing him. Write him off. Move on with your life, cherishing the good things about him but always keeping close in your heart the ways that he simply cannot meet your needs.

I used to be the type of person that would explore every single avenue, every morsel of good faith to "save" a relationship. Over time I've learned that some aren't worth saving, and some were never "relationships" in the truest, most egalitarian sense. I've also been in his position in the demise of a marriage, and it takes years and years to recover from it, if it ever happens.

Send it, but only if you're willing to walk away, as though you've just thrown a lit match on dry leaves. Do not expect this to make him come around in a grand (or even feeble) gesture.

I wish I could say something more encouraging.



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19 Jun 2012, 12:46 pm

Perhaps rewording it to turn it into a VERY obvious "one last chance"...? It'll have the same end goal of ending things if he won't step up to the plate, but make it plainly obvious that he has one last chance to make things right before things become too complicated to recover from.

And it gives YOU one last chance to get 'im, too. ;)

....now that I read it a little closer, It pretty much says exactly that! (Nice writing, by the way!) For us guys who can't take a hint, may I suggest making the direct invitation to the exact relationship you want? No hints - spell it out so he knows what he's getting into. I know I would be over-thinking the situation into a complete brain burn-out considering the many possible outcomes of taking a risk on a relationship with someone where pain was involved (like when you left long ago...)

I'll cross my fingers for you - good luck!



Last edited by BlueMax on 19 Jun 2012, 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

waitykatie
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19 Jun 2012, 12:52 pm

On one hand, he's in a phase, and I know he will move through it. I've known him for much of his adult life, so I've seen him do it before. He needs to be alone in those phases, but once he's finished, he needs to be in a relationship. During the times he can give me nothing else, it's the one thing that makes me confident that he'll come around eventually.

But in the meantime, life goes on. The world keeps turning, and I can't take much more of this. I've considered that getting a bit pissed with him may be helpful. I loathed doing it, but I did lose it and say this like this a few times back then. He seemed to accept it and respond to it. Weirdly, he seems to think I am weak now, because so far I've refused to. What I regard as an undignified lack of self-control, he seems to regard as the "strength" he likes in his women. I've worked hard to convey a sense of calm, security, stability, and predictability. But the fact that I seem like a sure thing, I think is actually part of the problem.



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19 Jun 2012, 12:54 pm

I don't understand his methods.... I'd call it "weird" but I suppose we all have our weird ways around here. ;)



mv
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19 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

waitykatie wrote:
On one hand, he's in a phase, and I know he will move through it. I've known him for much of his adult life, so I've seen him do it before. He needs to be alone in those phases, but once he's finished, he needs to be in a relationship. During the times he can give me nothing else, it's the one thing that makes me confident that he'll come around eventually.

But in the meantime, life goes on. The world keeps turning, and I can't take much more of this. I've considered that getting a bit pissed with him may be helpful. I loathed doing it, but I did lose it and say this like this a few times back then. He seemed to accept it and respond to it. Weirdly, he seems to think I am weak now, because so far I've refused to. What I regard as an undignified lack of self-control, he seems to regard as the "strength" he likes in his women. I've worked hard to convey a sense of calm, security, stability, and predictability. But the fact that I seem like a sure thing, I think is actually part of the problem.


These parts, especially (and you've said similar in the past) disturb me. There is a definite unhealthy power struggle going on here, one guaranteed to result in heartache and seething resentment. I don't know you, only you know what you're looking for and what you're willing to tolerate (are relationships just structures of "tolerance"? I certainly hope not.). He's said (or intimated) that there are things he doesn't respect about you (first bolded sentence) and in your missive you say that you're about out of respect for him, too. I don't see what's worth saving, honestly. I know he's said a lot of nice things, but these dribs and drabs of active progress, only to be ret*d again, can be only demoralizing.



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19 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm

mv wrote:
I would send it, but that's me. I've grown increasingly frustrated for you with all of your threads and your responses to people in a similar situation. I think your Aspie's problem isn't just limitations due to being a kind-hearted Aspie but lots and lots of emotional abuse that he has no way of dealing with, regardless of how much patience and kindness you (or anyone) throw at him.

It's harsh to say, but he seems "done" to me. There is no fixing him. Write him off. Move on with your life, cherishing the good things about him but always keeping close in your heart the ways that he simply cannot meet your needs.

I used to be the type of person that would explore every single avenue, every morsel of good faith to "save" a relationship. Over time I've learned that some aren't worth saving, and some were never "relationships" in the truest, most egalitarian sense. I've also been in his position in the demise of a marriage, and it takes years and years to recover from it, if it ever happens.

Send it, but only if you're willing to walk away, as though you've just thrown a lit match on dry leaves. Do not expect this to make him come around in a grand (or even feeble) gesture.

I wish I could say something more encouraging.


I agree wholeheartedly with everything expressed here. I too have been following your threads since the very beginning. I remember at one point asking you how things were going and you said you expected to hear from him sometime in the fall. I will never forget that because I thought to myself, if the guy I'm interested wasn't expected to contact me until the fall, would I be able to hang on?

What you've just expressed in this thread is completely different than any other post you've made. Trust me, I think I've read them all. I think this is what you've been feeling for a very long time but now have allowed yourself to express it. I had been thinking long ago that you've gone above and beyond trying to be patient and understanding. It doesn't seem like he's going to come around. I notice you say things like "it's what he and I both want" but if it was truly what he wanted he would be present in some shape or form. I know you want to hold on but it's like holding on to a corpse. I can't help but think about what's going on with him. Here you are distraught over this situation and I wonder if he's even thought twice about it? From one NT to another I hope that you will come to a resolution that you and your heart can deal with.



waitykatie
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19 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

I guess I would ask everyone to just accept that the internal dynamics between us are very much worth it. He's an amazing guy, and we were amazing together, and I don't think he's done or unfixable. It's not that there is genuine disrespect. It's just a WTF? moment here and there. So I am not willing to walk just yet, but he needs to get moving pretty soon here. Within a few months.

Sounds like it's time for me to stop being a passive sweetie, and maybe start taking control. But I'm at a loss. How? Getting a letter like this in front of him sounds like a good start. But we don't use email, it's too long for a text message, he won't talk to me on the phone, and he just moved so I don't know his home address. I once mailed a letter to him at his office. He read the whole thing and didn't mind at all. But it felt REALLY weird and I REALLY do not want to do that again. Any suggestions?



mv
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19 Jun 2012, 1:16 pm

waitykatie wrote:
I guess I would ask everyone to just accept that the internal dynamics between us are very much worth it. He's an amazing guy, and we were amazing together, and I don't think he's done or unfixable. It's not that there is genuine disrespect. It's just a WTF? moment here and there. So I am not willing to walk just yet, but he needs to get moving pretty soon here. Within a few months.

Sounds like it's time for me to stop being a passive sweetie, and maybe start taking control. But I'm at a loss. How? Getting a letter like this in front of him sounds like a good start. But we don't use email, it's too long for a text message, he won't talk to me on the phone, and he just moved so I don't know his home address. I once mailed a letter to him at his office. He read the whole thing and didn't mind at all. But it felt REALLY weird and I REALLY do not want to do that again. Any suggestions?


{sigh} Okay, I'm going to trust that there's something magical between you, or there seems to be every 1 out of 6 million moments. This does not a relationship make. Please, please, please go back and reread what you've written. This is not a man who wants or who can handle the normal give-and-take of a relationship. Especially not with a vibrant woman like you.

I'm so sad for you. I know you want this so much, you want this to be the perfect alignment. But it smacks of high school desperation and seeing things that aren't there, willing them to be. I know you'll ignore this, too, you seem to ignore all the realistic or remotely-negative responses to your posts. Which is your choice.

I hate, more than anything, watching people waste their lives and calling it "hope".



waitykatie
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19 Jun 2012, 1:37 pm

Please cut me some slack, mv. I can't describe every detail of every interaction. Some of the input I get here is applicable. Some of it isn't. Just because I don't respond doesn't mean I don't think it over, as the days and weeks go by.

I'm the one in the situation, I'm the one who knows him personally (BTW, thank you BlueMax, for saying he doesn't make sense to you either!), and I'm the one who has to make the judgment. I've invested a lot, so I'm not going to just scrap it, in the absence of a rock solid reason. In his own ways, that are impossible to describe, he has reassured me that he wants what I want. I believe him. It's never been an issue of "what," but rather an issue of "when."

More importantly, I've had enough and I want to do something about it. I hate the sense that I'm wasting my life too. The hope and love and magic and all that crap can come later. Right now I'm looking for insight as to concrete things within my control, that I can change, that might help get him off his duff.



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19 Jun 2012, 2:12 pm

waitykatie wrote:
Please cut me some slack, mv. I can't describe every detail of every interaction. Some of the input I get here is applicable. Some of it isn't. Just because I don't respond doesn't mean I don't think it over, as the days and weeks go by.

I'm the one in the situation, I'm the one who knows him personally (BTW, thank you BlueMax, for saying he doesn't make sense to you either!), and I'm the one who has to make the judgment. I've invested a lot, so I'm not going to just scrap it, in the absence of a rock solid reason. In his own ways, that are impossible to describe, he has reassured me that he wants what I want. I believe him. It's never been an issue of "what," but rather an issue of "when."

More importantly, I've had enough and I want to do something about it. I hate the sense that I'm wasting my life too. The hope and love and magic and all that crap can come later. Right now I'm looking for insight as to concrete things within my control, that I can change, that might help get him off his duff.


I have tried to cut you some slack, I really have, but the bolded part is the crux of it. Isn't "when" a big part of the "what"? It would be for me. What if "when" is 20 years from now?

I'm just firmly of the mind that you cannot change people and you *certainly* cannot make them do anything they're not already inclined to do. You can be inspiring, either passively or actively, but that's all you can do.

I wish you well. I don't foresee a happy ending here, not without a lot more soulcrushing compromise on your part.



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19 Jun 2012, 2:38 pm

mv wrote:
waitykatie wrote:
Please cut me some slack, mv. I can't describe every detail of every interaction. Some of the input I get here is applicable. Some of it isn't. Just because I don't respond doesn't mean I don't think it over, as the days and weeks go by.

I'm the one in the situation, I'm the one who knows him personally (BTW, thank you BlueMax, for saying he doesn't make sense to you either!), and I'm the one who has to make the judgment. I've invested a lot, so I'm not going to just scrap it, in the absence of a rock solid reason. In his own ways, that are impossible to describe, he has reassured me that he wants what I want. I believe him. It's never been an issue of "what," but rather an issue of "when."

More importantly, I've had enough and I want to do something about it. I hate the sense that I'm wasting my life too. The hope and love and magic and all that crap can come later. Right now I'm looking for insight as to concrete things within my control, that I can change, that might help get him off his duff.


I have tried to cut you some slack, I really have, but the bolded part is the crux of it. Isn't "when" a big part of the "what"? It would be for me. What if "when" is 20 years from now?

I'm just firmly of the mind that you cannot change people and you *certainly* cannot make them do anything they're not already inclined to do. You can be inspiring, either passively or actively, but that's all you can do.

I wish you well. I don't foresee a happy ending here, not without a lot more soulcrushing compromise on your part.


As I said on the other thread, you're just in for more hurt and suffering. If he isn't willing to change now, then you should just move on already. You'll end up waiting and waiting until you FINALLY realize nothing is going to change; you'll waste a ton more time when you could find someone who genuinely wants to make you happy and be with you. You will just continue holding onto something that isn't worth the effort you're putting into it. From what I'm reading, I don't see anything changing soon with how he is. Seems like he's playing a game, but I could be wrong. Maybe he's just too self-centered... I hope for your own sake that you find someone who is going to treat you well.



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19 Jun 2012, 2:53 pm

mv: you're right that it isn't just limitations due to being a kind-hearted Aspie but lots and lots of emotional abuse, regardless of how much patience and kindness anyone throws at him. He is scared, and needs time. How much time, is the question.

Right: if "when" is 20 years from now, obviously that's a deal-breaker, and I'll be long gone. But he once told me, "maybe 3 or 4 years from now." That was a bit over 3 years ago. At the time, I thought "oh boy, that does NOT work for me," and we didn't talk for 2 1/2 years. I had plenty of other things to deal with in the meantime, and a 1-year relationship that didn't go anywhere. So by now, he's basically right on track. I am just impatient, and would like it to be closer to 3 years than to 4.

I appreciate your kindness and your patience. I know that just listening to someone in a situation like this is taxing. (Imagine my poor mother! But first I helped her though her own, so she kind of owes me. :P )



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19 Jun 2012, 3:30 pm

You've given this man years of chances. What if he one day does decide to have a relationship with you but then rejects you possibly over and over again. How much more will that hurt when you've been intimate, or got married. I've seen this scenario play out in my own family and it's unhealthy. You state basic needs, both physical and emotional and not only does the other person fail to respond but they make you feel as if you are at fault for requesting those things. I often can't respond but I am able to acknowledge that it is my failure and not my partners.

So after years of waiting the man you love won't talk to you on the phone and didn't give you his address when he moved. Most people know their new address before they move and give it to those they want to have it. You say he is going through a phase, but surely even if you were in a relationship he might go into phases again and again.

I'm sorry if this is harsh or too direct I'm afraid I'm not great at subtlety. If this situation had been going on for a few months I would say persevere, but this has been years. You deserve someone who actually wants to have a relationship with you. You could carry on like this for years into the future and find yourself in exactly the same position as you are now.

I don't know whether you should send the letter or not, I don't know what would happen and I don't like to give advice when I can't guess at the outcome. I think you should have a think about the outcome you want, and the likelihood of that ever being a reality.



waitykatie
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19 Jun 2012, 3:30 pm

BlueMax: I appreciate your "one last chance" rewording suggestions (and thank you for the compliment and good wishes!) He responds well to pushy women (like his hothead Italian mother? who has nonetheless been supportive of him all these years), and once even invited me to push him. I have wondered if I am waiting for him to get over his mental block and feel more settled, all while he is waiting for me to take charge. When I consider how he may perceive me, I'm not sure who is waiting for who here.

I have already given considerable thought to your suggestion of making the "direct invitation to the exact relationship you want? No hints - spell it out so he knows what he's getting into." He has absolutely over-thought it into a complete brain burn-out. Most of what I've expressed has been allusions to the old days, and vague "we'll figure it out together" kind of stuff. Given my character, I think it's obvious what he'd be getting into - but then, he's a rotten judge of character.

If I were to spell it out, I might say something like this: "Aside from the sex and the love, of which there would be copious amounts, as you know, this is what I bring to the table. I can be a partner, to help you deal with people, to interact with the world. I hate people almost as much as you do, but I know how to keep them off your case. I also think you need help developing a relationship with your kids as they get older, since your ex did that before, but now she just wants to hurt you. Your nannies and babysitters keep lying about their references and flaking out on you, but your kids need stability and security, without strangers revolving in and out. Help with their homework and a friendly face to come home to, especially considering how much business travel you have to do. Likewise, there are many ways you can take care of me too, such as, help with the financial messes my f***ed-up family left me with, like a place to live and a car. Relatively minor, compared to your income, but huge in my world. You are also a great cook and never let me leave the house without a decent breakfast, which, frankly, I've never had since. You know things I don't, that I want you to teach me. I know things you don't, that I can teach you. We are also both athletic and like nature, and could go hiking and do all kinds of fun outdoorsy things. In all kinds of little ways, we could have fun and protect and take care of each other."

I have never said anything remotely like that, because it's just so obvious. But maybe not, so maybe I should?



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19 Jun 2012, 3:44 pm

Quote:
The hope and love and magic and all that crap can come later


Usually that comes right away.

Quote:
Right: if "when" is 20 years from now, obviously that's a deal-breaker, and I'll be long gone. But he once told me, "maybe 3 or 4 years from now." That was a bit over 3 years ago. At the time, I thought "oh boy, that does NOT work for me," and we didn't talk for 2 1/2 years. I had plenty of other things to deal with in the meantime, and a 1-year relationship that didn't go anywhere. So by now, he's basically right on track. I am just impatient, and would like it to be closer to 3 years than to 4.


I think if someone told me that in about 3 or for years from now they would be ready for a relationship, I would have to decline. Not because I am not a patient person, but because it would seem to me he was "putting me off". Like if I asked someone to go out with me and they said "oh maybe in about 5 years from now". I wonder if someone really knows that in 3 or 4 years they will want a relationship. So you're saying that if after 4 years he's still not ready then you'll walk? All you can do is send it and wait some more. Where you'll send it I haven't a clue. When I look at the fact that you: Haven't talked to him in months
Don't communicate through email
Wont text because it would be too long (would he respond?)
Do not know where he lives
And he won’t talk to you on the phone
This is what I'm working with here. But you are saying that because of certain things that you haven't disclosed to us that this is all okay. I know you are the one that knows him personally but you are after all asking us for advice/help/suggestions. Based on what has been presented to us this is how we are responding. I'm sure you were amazing together. I just don't think you're going to recapture that magic. It seems that you think there is some way you can fix this? Do you really think there is anything you can do that you haven't already done?

With that being said, I'm done. From your responses it seems you don't want to hear that it's time to move on and unfortunately that's all I can come up with. It appears the only person on here you have responded favrorably to is BlueMax and that's because he feels you may have another chance and I think that's what you want to hear. Attack me if you will, but this is my honest opinion.