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Things YOU Understand (but Don't Understand) About NTs

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Joe90
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30 Jun 2012, 3:52 am

again_with_this wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
The way all young NTs seem to be interested in drinking and dancing. Well, I used the word ''all'' because I don't know any better - I come from an NT family where all of my siblings and cousins are into the same thing: drinking and dancing.


With all due respect, Joe90, this is the sort of response I wasn't looking for, as I expressed in my OP.

Yours is an example of "Something I can see that NTs like, but I don't like."

I was asking about things that people do that you're not oblivious to, but go counter to you nature. Not just liking/disliking a social activity.


Well I do want to go out and socialise with a group but at the same time I don't know why youngsters like doing it so much.


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again_with_this
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30 Jun 2012, 4:09 am

Joe90 wrote:
Well I do want to go out and socialise with a group but at the same time I don't know why youngsters like doing it so much.


OK, but this has nothing to do with what I was asking.



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30 Jun 2012, 5:39 am

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I am curious if NTs just know the answer automatically/intuitively. I can answer it correctly, but I have to think it through to be sure.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4[/youtube]

On the spectrum^
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0zTg65aaCY[/youtube]

Typical ^

It's pretty quick.




I found it interesting how an NT child answered why his granny would think there is chocolate in the bag. I would have thought "because she wasn't here when you showed me what was in the bag" but the boy said "because it's a chocolate bag." I noticed the same pattern with the Sally Ann test when an NT took it and when someone did the same text using the crayon box and it had candles in it instead. Makes me wonder if our neurological brain wiring would make us answer the question differently to "Why would she think there is chocolate in this bag" while a typical person would say "because it's a chocolate bag?"

But I know the right answer now and will say next time "because it's a chocolate bag." :wink:


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again_with_this
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30 Jun 2012, 5:57 am

League_Girl wrote:
I found it interesting how an NT child answered why his granny would think there is chocolate in the bag. I would have thought "because she wasn't here when you showed me what was in the bag" but the boy said "because it's a chocolate bag." I noticed the same pattern with the Sally Ann test when an NT took it and when someone did the same text using the crayon box and it had candles in it instead. Makes me wonder if our neurological brain wiring would make us answer the question differently to "Why would she think there is chocolate in this bag" while a typical person would say "because it's a chocolate bag?"

But I know the right answer now and will say next time "because it's a chocolate bag." :wink:


This is an interesting observation. Personally, I'd probably have given the same answer as you, or something like, "she doesn't know what you put in the bag, so she'll assume it's chocolate." My answer would be specific to that bag, what I know about it, and what I understand she wouldn't know.

But to an NT, it's "a chocolate bag" (i.e. "because it's a chocolate bag, she will assume it's chocolate just like I would have"). And that's an instinctive response. This is a fascinating observation League Girl.

Where can I find the NT taking the Sally-Anne test, and the crayons/candle test?



Joe90
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30 Jun 2012, 8:22 am

again_with_this wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Well I do want to go out and socialise with a group but at the same time I don't know why youngsters like doing it so much.


OK, but this has nothing to do with what I was asking.

I know, just thought I'll say anyway. I wrote a more relavent post on your thread a few pages back.


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30 Jun 2012, 11:27 am

again_with_this wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I found it interesting how an NT child answered why his granny would think there is chocolate in the bag. I would have thought "because she wasn't here when you showed me what was in the bag" but the boy said "because it's a chocolate bag." I noticed the same pattern with the Sally Ann test when an NT took it and when someone did the same text using the crayon box and it had candles in it instead. Makes me wonder if our neurological brain wiring would make us answer the question differently to "Why would she think there is chocolate in this bag" while a typical person would say "because it's a chocolate bag?"

But I know the right answer now and will say next time "because it's a chocolate bag." :wink:


This is an interesting observation. Personally, I'd probably have given the same answer as you, or something like, "she doesn't know what you put in the bag, so she'll assume it's chocolate." My answer would be specific to that bag, what I know about it, and what I understand she wouldn't know.

But to an NT, it's "a chocolate bag" (i.e. "because it's a chocolate bag, she will assume it's chocolate just like I would have"). And that's an instinctive response. This is a fascinating observation League Girl.

Where can I find the NT taking the Sally-Anne test, and the crayons/candle test?



It's somewhere on youtube.


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30 Jun 2012, 11:42 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLubgpY2_w[/youtube]

Skip to 2:42

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGSj2zY2OEM[/youtube]

Skip to 2:09


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30 Jun 2012, 3:40 pm

again_with_this wrote:
And what exactly is a "true A" ?

I think we know this:
There are no absolute A's. Human behavior is all relative, as some possess greater ability.
Mdyar wrote:
In this thread, I think you are hunting into what side of the theory mind spectrum you fall into. If you cognitively get it, but emotively fail to grasp or comprehend it intuitively - with emotion- then you may fall into the spectrum of 'emotional reciprocity'. I fall into it the same way. If you're a Gifted NT, then you wouldn't have issues with empathy. Such ones 'know' but get along with the order. They intuitively get the social contract (what I outlined in your thread). It seems we don't feel that , but constructed an abstract way of penetrating the behavior.

What do you think?


Quote:
When you say "get" the social contract, I take it you actually mean they naturally "abide by" the social contract. I think it's possible to understand it, but not accept it. I think that may be what you're saying about us both. But is it entirely a lack of emotional understanding on our part, or a lack of emotional understanding by those that abide by the social contract towards "deviants" like ourselves?


Quote:
But is it entirely a lack of emotional understanding on our part,


Ah, but do you or did you ever feel the innate need to copy those around you? Emotional Empathy anyone? You bet. A want in Cognitive Empathy? Nope, no problem here. Is this an entirely bad thing? Absolutely not. Do we commit crimes via this? No.

The unconscious agreement about how we should behave towards one another is, in the end, enforced as much by empathy as by the fear of punishment. Most of us have a powerful need to belong to the group and our ability to imagine ourselves in one another's shoes, to recognise others as people like ourselves, is just as fundamental a human trait as is selfishness and greed.



Last edited by Mdyar on 30 Jun 2012, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Jun 2012, 5:19 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Most of us have a powerful need to belong to the group and our ability to imagine ourselves in one another's shoes, to recognise others as people like ourselves, is just as fundamental a human trait as is selfishness and greed.


Both A and B are doing this, just not with the same theory of mind.

A thinks, "I wonder if B is going the party. I'll ask directly. I'd appreciate directness, so I'll assume B does too. And maybe B will like the fact that I've taken an interest."

B thinks, "A is asking me if I'm going to the party because he wants me to go with him. That's why I'd ask, so it must be what he's getting at with that question. I better make it clear I don't want to go with him."

Who is failing to empathize with the other? Are they both failing to empathize with one another, or do they have a different sense of what empathy is.

Please explain.



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30 Jun 2012, 8:15 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Weird.

Deserves more: The idea of being able to just know these things is somewhat alien to me. The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems." Admittedly, not difficult problems, but still necessary.


Quote:
The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems."

Very interesting Verdandi ( notice the no reference to Venus here? :lol: Just kidding )

I recall very early in school the intense feelings of not knowing what to do - for example, if they asked of me something( which I knew they eventually would) - that I couldn't deliver - hence a dissonance; an anxiety stemming from a confusion of a sense that I lacked some type of instinctual sense.
The puzzling thing about this is that my performance in the areas of common sense has vastly improved. I believe I get an intuitive signal, now, based on a history of trial & error.

Curious: Have you improved on your end?



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30 Jun 2012, 8:51 pm

To get back to the original question of this post, what I kind of get but am still not really on the same page regarding ... KISSING. Sometimes I feel it, other times not. However, I do see and sometimes feel why kissing is so important. I just haven't really nailed how to do it down yet.



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30 Jun 2012, 9:31 pm

again_with_this wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
Most of us have a powerful need to belong to the group and our ability to imagine ourselves in one another's shoes, to recognise others as people like ourselves, is just as fundamental a human trait as is selfishness and greed.


Both A and B are doing this, just not with the same theory of mind.

A thinks, "I wonder if B is going the party. I'll ask directly. I'd appreciate directness, so I'll assume B does too. And maybe B will like the fact that I've taken an interest."

B thinks, "A is asking me if I'm going to the party because he wants me to go with him. That's why I'd ask, so it must be what he's getting at with that question. I better make it clear I don't want to go with him."

Who is failing to empathize with the other? Are they both failing to empathize with one another, or do they have a different sense of what empathy is.

Please explain.


"B" has little concept of "self." I firmly believe the selves A's have are gauged against a difference, such as being around divergent people -by different experiences. B's empathy is a general projection of "group think," a " conditioned program." B's sense of empathy( sympathy) is confined to B's culture. B fails to grasp the concept similar and like, and conflates these with "same." Ultimately, B has a shortcoming with ToM, hence a shortcoming in communication.

I believe you are thinking that A might fail in some regard because he cant fully and accurately communicate in the conversation: If I spoke to a deaf man, and I was unaware of that; I would lack ToM.



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30 Jun 2012, 10:03 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Weird.

Deserves more: The idea of being able to just know these things is somewhat alien to me. The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems." Admittedly, not difficult problems, but still necessary.


Quote:
The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems."

Very interesting Verdandi ( notice the no reference to Venus here? :lol: Just kidding )


"Verdandi" is the name of one of the three Norse Norns, similar to the three Greek Fates. The three are Urd, Skuld, and Verdandi.

Wikipedia also says

Quote:
Verðandi is literally the present tense of the Old Norse verb "verða", "to become", and is commonly translated as "in the making" or "that which is happening/becoming"; it is related to the Dutch word worden and the German word werden, both meaning "to become".


Quote:
I recall very early in school the intense feelings of not knowing what to do - for example, if they asked of me something( which I knew they eventually would) - that I couldn't deliver - hence a dissonance; an anxiety stemming from a confusion of a sense that I lacked some type of instinctual sense.
The puzzling thing about this is that my performance in the areas of common sense has vastly improved. I believe I get an intuitive signal, now, based on a history of trial & error.

Curious: Have you improved on your end?


I have improved over the years. I got my most intense lessons in this sort of thing because of playing role-playing games as a teenager and having trouble with the idea that characters I played might not know things that I knew. At that time I was aware that other people knew things I didn't and vice versa, but I think there were gaps because of the trouble I had playing, of all things, Dungeons & Dragons.



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30 Jun 2012, 10:19 pm

Ellingtonia wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an exclusively NT trait, but most people seem to find that talking about their problems makes them feel better, to 'get it off their chest'. I understand that many experience this, but I've never found it to be true for myself.


My hubby and I went round and round about that. When he wanted to talk about his problems, I kept trying to find a solution for him, but that wasn't what he wanted. He wanted someone to listen to him, just to discuss it. I've come to regard this as his "stim" since talking about it does the same for him as spinning or rocking does for me.

Just like they are social to recharge, contrasted with our need for solitude, they need to socially discuss problems to make them feel better


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02 Jul 2012, 9:56 pm

Mdyar wrote:
"B" has little concept of "self." I firmly believe the selves A's have are gauged against a difference, such as being around divergent people -by different experiences. B's empathy is a general projection of "group think," a " conditioned program." B's sense of empathy( sympathy) is confined to B's culture. B fails to grasp the concept similar and like, and conflates these with "same." Ultimately, B has a shortcoming with ToM, hence a shortcoming in communication.

I believe you are thinking that A might fail in some regard because he cant fully and accurately communicate in the conversation: If I spoke to a deaf man, and I was unaware of that; I would lack ToM.


In regards to A "failing" with ToM, I was trying to play devil's advocate. A seems very much like someone with Asperger's (direct, blunt, no hidden context). And perhaps one could fault A for not taking into account that the people he speaks with might engage in this group think, as B is doing. Personally, I wouldn't hold it against him and applaud his directness.

B seems very NT to me. And as you yourself say, B engages in a group think. And B very much has a shortcoming with theory of mind.

Yet it seems the A-types are the ones accused of not having theory of mind. You're sort of agreeing with my premise at some point back wherein I say that the theory of mind autistics are allegedly lacking should be called "Theory of Neurotypical Mind," ie, "lacking ToM" as it's described in psychological literature really means inability or unwillingness to use group think as the standard for communication.

B does not strike me as autistic, or at least not Asperger's. B seems very much like an NT.

What is your theory as to how A and B would be classified regarding the spectrum and having/lacking ToM. I'm not asking how you would diagnose them, but how they'd most likely be diagnosed (AS or NT) based on the current climate of practicing psychologists?



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02 Jul 2012, 10:00 pm

salem44dream wrote:
To get back to the original question of this post, what I kind of get but am still not really on the same page regarding ... KISSING. Sometimes I feel it, other times not. However, I do see and sometimes feel why kissing is so important. I just haven't really nailed how to do it down yet.


Statistically, those on the spectrum are less likely to have as many romantic relationships as those who are NT.

I wonder if lack of experience might cause this confusion, or it really does just feel strange.

Sort of tying in with being kissed: I think I understand PDA (Public Displays of Affection) in theory. Part of it may be that people are just that in love, another part of it may be they want to display non-verbally that they're a couple. Yet, in practice, it feels really strange to me.