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paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 11:23 am

hello everyone!
I'm very interested in consciousness, and I'm studying it in my free time for the fun a couple of days now.
Probably many people on this forum knows more than me on this subject and I'm asking if you know alot of it,
can you give me some tips of books, articles, or anything else to read on this subject?


So far I understand that we as humans have no free will, we do think we have a free will, however, it's an illusion of our consciousness.
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdh8bixG ... r_embedded
[2] http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... _decision/
[3] http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/ ... 8.751.html

"The Act takes place, but there is not someone who does him."
--Buddha

"As the Moon, during the referenced-corpses of her eternal movement around the Earth, was of a self-awareness, she would completely convinced that she was moving from himself. So would a being, endowed with a higher insight and more perfect intelligence, looking at the man and his actions, laugh at the illusion of man that he acts from his own free will."
--Albert Einstein

Who are you?
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBBP-pSI ... r_embedded

We are consciousness without a free will, this consciousness is experience itself. In the form of humans, animals, trees, stones etc.
a synonym of consciousness is energy?

Thanks!



redrobin62
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07 Jul 2012, 12:49 pm

??? We as humans have no free will?
So if I decided to go to community college to study IT or basket weaving or contemporary art it was predetermined?
If I decide to go with this girl or that guy it was predetermined?
If I decide to wear shorts or a kilt or a bathrobe or a mini skirt to the store it was predetermined?
What should I do about the song "Freewill" by Rush? Throw it away? But I love me some Rush! Waahhh!



paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 1:06 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
??? We as humans have no free will?
So if I decided to go to community college to study IT or basket weaving or contemporary art it was predetermined?
If I decide to go with this girl or that guy it was predetermined?
If I decide to wear shorts or a kilt or a bathrobe or a mini skirt to the store it was predetermined?
What should I do about the song "Freewill" by Rush? Throw it away? But I love me some Rush! Waahhh!


If I read the articles and videos so far I think you can conclude that yes.



thedaywalker
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07 Jul 2012, 1:20 pm

we don't know how the mind works we know how atoms in simple situations work. saying that in a human mind things probably work the way they work in a computer is needless extrapolation.
i get that the concept of nondeterminism is hard to grasp but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
that budhistic quote:

"The Act takes place, but there is not someone who does him."
--Buddha is interp

doesn't mean that there is actualy no one who does it because then how would it take place it just means that the thing that does is the nothingnis.



paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 1:24 pm

thedaywalker wrote:
we don't know how the mind works we know how atoms in simple situations work. saying that in a human mind things probably work the way they work in a computer is needless extrapolation.
i get that the concept of nondeterminism is hard to grasp but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
that budhistic quote:

"The Act takes place, but there is not someone who does him."
--Buddha is interp

doesn't mean that there is actualy no one who does it because then how would it take place it just means that the thing that does is the nothingnis.


thank you for respons!
I think it just say that it just happen, like trees that grew in our eyes.
Things just happen the way they do. We can't change them. I'm new in this subject, but their seems to be something in it.
I need ofcourse more research ;)



paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 1:28 pm

"doesn't mean that there is actualy no one who does it because then how would it take place it just means that the thing that does is the nothingnis."

very interested, but how can nothingness do something?
My view is that we are all one, monism or nondualism.
Nothingness is energy or consciousness that is experience itself.



Aharon
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07 Jul 2012, 1:49 pm

In an effort to define ourselves, it's easy to limit ourselves. The "me" I think of myself as is just as much a flawed perception as the misperceptions people have of me. I think, therefore I am, but I am not what I think. Who is, really?


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paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 1:57 pm

Aharon wrote:
In an effort to define ourselves, it's easy to limit ourselves. The "me" I think of myself as is just as much a flawed perception as the misperceptions people have of me. I think, therefore I am, but I am not what I think. Who is, really?


wow, what are you saying?
are you saying that Descartes quote "I think, so I'm" is flawed?



pete1061
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07 Jul 2012, 2:19 pm

Pretty much all of our decisions & responses are based off biological reactions in our bodies. We are really slaves to our biology. The decision of what course to study at college at it's root is based on what path will provide the best chance of survival of our body and the most comfort. Deciding which sex partner to go with is obviously a very biological one. Even the emotions in that relationship are just biological reactions. Even what outfit we choose is a decision based on how comfortable our body will be.

I'm not sure if it's really "predetermination". It's just that what we think is free will is just complex neurological evaluations of our environment and what will most favorably sustain these biological shells we inhabit. Our preferences and our emotional responses are a result of the complex set of experiences we have had throughout our lives.

Or exact path through time is not 100% predetermined, but more governed by our bodies need to survive & thrive. But it's not just the needs of our bodies that factor into that but also the needs of those around us and our environment. We are guided and pushed along our path through the universe by a large set of factors.

So, yes, "free will" is just an illusion.
We are pretty much just along for the ride.


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Last edited by pete1061 on 07 Jul 2012, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aharon
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07 Jul 2012, 2:21 pm

I think his statement was more about proving to ourselves that our consciousness exists. How we choose to see ourselves is the problem; because by choosing we make biased adherences to select perceptions. Therefore the only way to see clearly would be not to choose, and by doing so (not doing so), we reduce ourselves to the fullest form of being; emptiness.

I think he touched on that loosely when mentioning free will, but a will guided by impulses as he describes is not free. That's more of an animal nature. Unlike animals, however, we can rise above our impulses and live unattached and truly free. So I think while all people have the capacity for free will, most of us live happily burdened in our own chains.


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We are not so different from potted plants in that, if given everything we need to be properly nourished, the outcome can be incredibly contrary to when we are not. A flower won't grow in flour, and neither can we.


paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 2:26 pm

pete1061 wrote:
Pretty much all of our decisions & responses are based off biological reactions in our bodies. We are really slaves to our biology. The decision of what course to study at college at it's root is based on what path will provide the best chance of survival of our body and the most comfort. Deciding which sex partner to go with is obviously a very biological one. Even the emotions in that relationship are just biological reactions. Even what outfit we choose is a decision based on how comfortable our body will be.

I'm not sure if it's really "predetermination". It's just that what we think is free will is just complex neurological evaluations of our environment and what will most favorably sustain these biological shells we inhabit. Our preferences and our emotional responses are a result of the complex set of experiences we have had throughout our lives.

Or exact path through time is not 100% predetermined, but more governed by our bodies need to survive & thrive. But it's not just the needs of our bodies that factor into that but also the needs of those around us and our environment. We are guided and pushed along our path through the universe by a large set of factors.

So, yes, "free will" is just an illusion.
We are pretty much just along for the ride.

thanks

anyone suggestion of articles, books etc?



Aharon
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07 Jul 2012, 2:54 pm

I'm a big fan of the movie, Peaceful Warrior. There aren't a lot of movies on the nature of being, and this is a good one.


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We are not so different from potted plants in that, if given everything we need to be properly nourished, the outcome can be incredibly contrary to when we are not. A flower won't grow in flour, and neither can we.


VIDEODROME
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07 Jul 2012, 3:07 pm

So what if my stomach aches from hunger, then I must eat to feed myself, so my will is governed by my biology?

Well..... yes and no. That is a strong influence upon decision making, but we can decide whether or not to eat. The easy sensible choice is of course to eat though.

I tend to think we have mostly free will lol. We can make decisions within the parameters available to us at a given time.

I suppose some people can work on being more "Mindful" and much better at seeing available choices and lessening the effect of other influences like internal hormones or external peer pressure.

On the other hand there are people who are guided more by their appetites and desires. In those cases people really can seem to not have much free will or even care about having it.

Finally, there is a middle area between these extremes. Suppose a person is an Alcoholic? Maybe in this area of life that have lost Free Will? There may still be a tiny voice of reason within them that understands what they're doing. They're trying to stop. Some alcoholics do stop while others promise themselves they'll have one more drink and then quit. Or worse maybe some people decide to drown out the inner conflict over it by giving in entirely to their addiction.



singularity
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07 Jul 2012, 3:40 pm

i think the OP should read about the mind/brain debate. Consciousness is a phenomena of the biology of the brain; therefore there is no 'self' sitting up behind our eyes with free will and a 'soul' that carries on after our body dies. That's one side of the debate, in any case. Lots of interesting literature on both sides.



paxfilosoof
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07 Jul 2012, 3:59 pm

thanks all, I'll do some real research tomorrow ^^

Good night.



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07 Jul 2012, 6:20 pm

Options, responses and decisions are based on our bodies, our time and our place. For example what we eat, wear, do, learn, study etc. is determined by a)our biological make up, b) what is available at the time at which we exist and where society is at that time (i.e. what is possible or what opportunities exist at any point in time is constantly changing) and in the same way who we are and our lives are significantly influenced by the places we are born into. I think these things influence us in a few ways, firstly they influence who we are, who we are perceived to be, seen to be, see ourselves to be, our expected role in society, what is socially acceptable etc. They also determine what opportunities we have, which in turn determine what we can do with our lives. So decisions are essentially evaluations of our biological nature in respect to our environment to identify what opportunities we have and the expected payoffs of those opportunities.

Aharon wrote:
So I think while all people have the capacity for free will, most of us live happily burdened in our own chains.

Others and society also put chains around us.
VIDEODROME wrote:
We can make decisions within the parameters available to us at a given time.
But the effect of those parameters can significantly limit or restrict your options and choices, pushing you down a path, or ruling out other paths.


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