Don't bullies have empathy?

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Joe90
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10 Jul 2012, 12:42 pm

Generally, bullies are usually NTs that either pick on other NTs that are weaker or have a difference in they way they conform, like teenage girls who are tomboys, or they pick on people with disabilities. But my mum and her sister (who have never bullied anyone before), were talking about bullies the other day, and my mum said, ''if only they realised what damage they are causing.''

So do bullies realise how much they are upsetting the victim? Or don't they care? Don't they ever stop and think, ''I don't think I would like it if I were in this situation, so this person obviously doesn't look like he/she likes it. I might leave him/her alone.'' And not all bullies are weak themselves. Some people just bully for the fun of it, probably because they love seeing the victim getting upset, but then how would the bullies feel if they have kids one day who get bullied?

Because I've never been a bully myself, I don't know how bully's minds work.


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10 Jul 2012, 1:02 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Generally, bullies are usually NTs that either pick on other NTs that are weaker or have a difference in they way they conform, like teenage girls who are tomboys, or they pick on people with disabilities. But my mum and her sister (who have never bullied anyone before), were talking about bullies the other day, and my mum said, ''if only they realised what damage they are causing.''

So do bullies realise how much they are upsetting the victim? Or don't they care? Don't they ever stop and think, ''I don't think I would like it if I were in this situation, so this person obviously doesn't look like he/she likes it. I might leave him/her alone.'' And not all bullies are weak themselves. Some people just bully for the fun of it, probably because they love seeing the victim getting upset, but then how would the bullies feel if they have kids one day who get bullied?

Because I've never been a bully myself, I don't know how bully's minds work.


First it's a myth that autistic people have a lack of empathy.
I think "lack of empathy", from the point of NTs, is because they cannot understand our way of expressing emotions, and we cannot understand their. In order to express empathy, there is a need to understand emotions, and to express emotions in compatible ways. Differences in nonverbal communication forms the core in AS, which is why we are perceived to "lack emparthy".

Relationships/friendships between AS are easier because both show similar emotions (and of course nonverbal communication).
Neurotypical people show a lack of emapthy against autistic people too, it works in both directions.
Both types are not always aware what they're doing wrong against the other type.

Bullying is the neurotypical way of lack of empathy against autistic people or other people.

All the research on autism is basedon the idea that autism is the same as neurotypical but defects in the brains why the behavior is different.
This is NOT true, and that's why the 'social', 'communication', empathy and many other differences are seen as defects in autism/asperger.

However, it's obvious to me that two people with similar genes can communicate in an effective way. Simple as that but noone realize it.



Last edited by paxfilosoof on 10 Jul 2012, 1:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Aharon
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10 Jul 2012, 1:05 pm

A bully's greatest fear is to be the little guy everyone picks on. Whatever empathy they might have is overwhelmed by this fear; better someone else then them. They may also get addicted to the sense of power and authority being a bully can give. Either way, it's a pitiful, validation starved person who feels they can only thrive by causing the suffering of others.


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CockneyRebel
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10 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm

I've always thought that bullies were unfeeling robots who always picked on autistic kids and adults.


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paxfilosoof
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10 Jul 2012, 1:14 pm

[1]Jasper van Haasteren said:

I think I'll take the term normocentrism as a starting point. An interesting idea to give this a name, but this term clouds the readers from what for me is the underlying issue. The underlying issue in my view is that every individual has the tendency to experience his/her own way of feeling, seeing, hearing, and experiencing the world as being valid. This makes it a small step to view one?s own experience of life as the only one, or as the majority one. This also makes it hard to understand other ways to experience life, other ways of thinking, feeling, dealing with situations, etc. etc.
If we were to start from the term normocentrism, Mottron uses this to differentiate between autistic and non-autistic people. If the term is truly intended to only point at this distinction, it should be neurotypical centrism. Make the term fit the limited distinction between autistic and neurotypical people.

And here is why I say so. Within Mensa I have a few friends who are also autistic. We have our own set of nonverbal communications, our own set of social "rules" and we have even tested them in a wider context. The most interesting observations happened when there was a large group of autistic people with only a couple of neurotypical people. In this setting the autistic way of communicating was used by almost everyone, and those who did not "speak" our social interaction were left out. This of course meant the most hardcore neurotypical people. They were unable to join conversations, they were unable to get any contact whatsoever, and in the end some of them just left the conference. If we apply the term normocentrism, in this setting it would mean that the autistic way of communicating was the norm and those who have not mastered the autistic way of interacting were socially inapt.
I have also been to several meetings for aspergers, in that setting it is easy for all of us to join conversations, to engage in social contact, etc. etc. because we all speak the same social language.

It is merely that the neurotypical population far outnumbers the autistic population which causes the neurotypical ways of social conduct prevails. It is this outnumbering that is the root cause for every problem that is experienced by people that fall outside the ways of doing and being of the majority. Be it autistic, be it extremely intelligent, be it a more complex worldview, be it left handiness, be it sexual orientation, it doesn't matter how an individual differs. To differ means there's a gap both sides have to overcome.

To apply this on the individual level: Every person has a certain way of interacting with others that is natural for that individual. Also each person has a certain range with whom she/he can interact. Of course the range varies from person to person. But if the natural ways of communicating between two people are far enough apart, having a huge range can still mean the two of them have trouble communicating, or are even unable to communicate. Both will interpret the reactions and behavior of the other in ways that is comprehensible to themselves. And this is by definition limited, and does not always include the way the one giving the reaction will interpret it.
If the natural way of being between individuals differs only slightly, communication is much more fluent. This is so simple and obvious that hardly anyone seems to realize this to be at the root of communication between people. Communication difficulties as well as success depend on the differences between the natural ways and the range both can reach.
Just to make the most obvious point so far: if the group is autistic, the differences are small, and thus even a small range is more than sufficient. The same goes if the group is neurotypical, or extremely intelligent, intuitive, non-verbal or any way of being that anyone can think of.

The mistake made by the majority is that they impose their way of communicating upon others. Their values, their ideals, their ways of communication, everything gets imposed upon the minority. And those who do not fit the profile set by the majority get labeled as being defective. And from the viewpoint that to differ is to be defective, this is correct.
Viewed from science to differ means just that, to differ. But since the neurotypical way of being has the tendency to give emotional value to everything, the neurotypical way of being has difficulties using objective language and thought. And thus it sees defects. And defects usually require a fix.
It is the view of me and my fellow Aspergers that this is a shortcoming in the neurotypical way of being. Some Aspergers view this shortcoming with the same judgmental normocentrism that many of neurotypical people view the autistic way of being.

Another basic flaw in how autism is being described and tested has to do with the concept of empathy. This concept is viewed from the perspective of the neurotypical way of being, with all of its neurotypical centric applications.
When we let go of neurotypical centric and any other kind of centric view the result would be the following: The range of being an individual can communicate with also entails a range of being with which this individual can empathize with. This range is usually limited to what the individual trying to understand how another might feel, would feel himself in the situation the other is in. This of course has the basic flaw that the variation of ways to experience a situation is much larger than the range of feelings any single individual will experience within that situation.
The solution is to try to understand the way the other individual?s way of being works, and to do this in the terms the other uses, letting go of all your own experiences for that situation.
For the neurotypical way of being this is almost impossible. The neurotypical way of being starts out with how it itself would feel in any situation and then ascribe those feelings to others. This works for all other neurotypical individuals and this is a successful strategy in those situations. However, this strategy utterly fails when trying to empathize with someone outside the neurotypical range, for example an autistic person.
For most autistic individuals, their range does not include the neurotypical way of experiencing life. And since the autistic way is a minority, autistic people have to work very hard on increasing their range to reach the neurotypical way of experiencing life. On the other hand, neurotypical centrism states that it is perfectly healthy that the range of neurotypical individuals does not include the autistic way of experiencing life.
For autistic people, the capability to process large amounts of raw data is a solution most high intelligent autistic people adopt. They collect an almost insane amount of data on the neurotypical way of being and after a decade or two of study they can enter some simple neurotypical social settings.
After this long study, the range of people who have traveled this path is much larger, even though it might still not include the neurotypical way of being. The interesting thing is that neurotypical centrism keeps saying that autistic individuals can?t empathize with people very well. While the neurotypical scientists only mean that the neurotypical way of being is not within the range of the autistic people who are tested.

Another thought: I believe the reason why autism is viewed in such negative terms has a historical reason. It was first described from the perspective of psychiatry instead of the perspective of psychology. Psychiatry feels it needs to fix while psychology is mainly interested in the fact that humans differ from each other. In a way, psychiatry is much more normocentric than psychology is.

I think this covers what I wanted to say for now, I am quite interested in any response.

Jasper.

[1] http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 9033a.html



paxfilosoof
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10 Jul 2012, 1:24 pm

People will ignore my findings and others but it is true.
Autistic people are much better in communication to eachother because they speak the same social language, same nonverbal communication etc etc.
On this forum we have alot of people who really think that autism is a lack of empathy, but these people didn't even studied scientific research.



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10 Jul 2012, 2:11 pm

I was a bully. I was 12-16 (?) and didn't realize harm I was doing. In fact in my class there were 5-8 of us bulling one boy. He was our friend, but somehow weak and "lower" :/ It was fun to tease him, our way of killing time. We were really stupid and blind. What helped us? Teacher of ours. She took us outside the classroom once after this boy cryed od something. She was really affective even mad. Gave us slap. That was the moment we realized how stupid were we. I dedicated her my bachelor thesis about this topic after



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10 Jul 2012, 2:18 pm

Aharon wrote:
A bully's greatest fear is to be the little guy everyone picks on. Whatever empathy they might have is overwhelmed by this fear; better someone else then them. They may also get addicted to the sense of power and authority being a bully can give. Either way, it's a pitiful, validation starved person who feels they can only thrive by causing the suffering of others.


This is good insight here. I've been thinking about this a lot for years and studying bullying because it still happens to me in my 30's (my ex-wife never believed me - thought I just "couldn't get along with people"...) There's different types of bullies... some ruled by fear, others addicted to power... then there's the sociopath who is driven by one desire ONLY and that's pure self-interest. The sociopathic bully follows those #@$% "Points of Power" just by nature and crush all in their path, destroy all potential competitors and make friends only to serve and protect themselves.



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10 Jul 2012, 2:20 pm

No! They don't empathise at all... It's all fun because they get to see pain, fear, misery and anger, even all 4 of the emotions of the one they are bullying.
Your lucky not to have been bullied. For that I applaud you.
They don't care how you feel as it feels good that they are the dominant ones.
They don't apologise for their behaviour and they don't regret it.
Some of it can originate from the upbringing and some can be from being the victim.


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10 Jul 2012, 2:56 pm

More information about empathy in autism:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt203434.html



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10 Jul 2012, 3:45 pm

Aharon wrote:
A bully's greatest fear is to be the little guy everyone picks on. Whatever empathy they might have is overwhelmed by this fear; better someone else then them. They may also get addicted to the sense of power and authority being a bully can give. Either way, it's a pitiful, validation starved person who feels they can only thrive by causing the suffering of others.


This about says it all.



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10 Jul 2012, 4:04 pm

I'm sure that most do have empathy for some others, just not for the people they pick on.


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10 Jul 2012, 4:11 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Generally, bullies are usually NTs that either pick on other NTs that are weaker or have a difference in they way they conform, like teenage girls who are tomboys, or they pick on people with disabilities. But my mum and her sister (who have never bullied anyone before), were talking about bullies the other day, and my mum said, ''if only they realised what damage they are causing.''

So do bullies realise how much they are upsetting the victim? Or don't they care? Don't they ever stop and think, ''I don't think I would like it if I were in this situation, so this person obviously doesn't look like he/she likes it. I might leave him/her alone.'' And not all bullies are weak themselves. Some people just bully for the fun of it, probably because they love seeing the victim getting upset, but then how would the bullies feel if they have kids one day who get bullied?

Because I've never been a bully myself, I don't know how bully's minds work.


Hard to say. I think a bully hurts people in order to cope with their own feelings of inadequacy. I've seen people who are bullied turn around and bully other people. Especially with men, there is a pecking order established. It's a little more complex than "they are bad people."

I remember an incident which happened to me in High School. I was being regularly bullied in one of my classes. Someone was observing this and one day decided it was his turn bully me. That would have been fine, had he been taller than me (he wasn't), heavier than me (he wasn't), older than me (he wasn't), or an experienced fighter (he wasn't). He saw me just take the abuse from some of the other kids and accept it, so he thought everyone could bully me. I can't remember what he did exactly. I just remember picking up his binder and throwing it out the window. He physically tried to stop me, but he couldn't.

I don't think his actions bolstered his self esteem, as he never raised a hand against me again.



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10 Jul 2012, 6:07 pm

Half my problem was that I assumed everyone had a pure heart like me: if only these bullies REALLY knew what they were doing they would stop and apologize profusely. It wasn't until it was hammered into my head repeatedly that some of these bullies honestly don't give a $@$@ and still think there is nothing wrong with bullying and humiliating someone. In fact, many would probably say it was MY fault for not standing up to them. As adults, I know a few continue to be bullies in the workplace. It's just they are constrained by law from physically harming anyone but they have no problems emotionally torturing those who are 'below' them.

Of course, all the 'normal' kids quickly jumped in because they were spineless cowards who were afraid to stand up for what's right. They probably felt somewhat bad but it didn't stop them from doing some awful things.



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10 Jul 2012, 6:11 pm

^ This!


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10 Jul 2012, 6:52 pm

I just can't believe I'm approaching 40 and people STILL do it! :(