Why I'll Never Understand the NT World

Post Reply New Topic

Perhaps this group think/herd mentality has a dual purpose - it ensures the group stick together (as there are many advantages to be gained from being part of the group), but if the group is following a 'bad' leader they could all die (as in the Titanic example given above), hence it also functions as a form of population control/weeds out the less intelligent/less well-adapted.

If life is all about survival of the fittest, the person who usually follows the group but for a vital life or death decision uses their own brain instead to more accurately weigh up the risks of continuing to follow the group, will be the fittest/most likely to survive. So people need to be able to do both group think and individual thinking to maximise their advantages in life.

'Ultra NT's' specialise in total group think and people with ASD's specialise in ultra individual thinking - they are therefore both extremes that disadvantage the person as the ideal is to be in the middle (from a survival and gaining benefits point of view)

If you apply logic in situations to evaluate if it's a good idea to follow the herd this time or not, then you're non-NT. In NTs, the protection of the group is always the prevailing, top value, and it's instinctive and unconscious. I don't think you can have both the NT and the non-NT instinct prevail; it's either one prevails or the other.

If you don't like to be corrected, try not to correct others.

I'd tend to disagree. Autistic traits can be found within the general population - it's only when there are too many traits that it becomes a difficulty. I have Asperger's Syndrome myself and my brother has a phD in Geology and does lab research - he uses logic for his job but in no way is he on the autistic spectrum. Logic is not the sole preserve of autistic people and this split between NTs and people with an ASD is not scientific, it's arbitrarily placed by people purely on observation and individual interpretation of behaviour.

Lots of people like to be in with a group sometimes but also like to think for themselves and do things on their own at other times so in my opinion it's not a hard and fast rule.

I would be more likely to class people who follow the group blindly all the time as stupid as opposed to NT. There's plenty of stupidity and group think among people on the autistic spectrum as well as among so-called NTs. This idea of all people with Aspergers/HF having superior logical thinking skills is, from my own experience highly fallacious. Many of the people with Aspergers I've come across are trying desperately to fit in with NT culture and that, by default, involves a severe amount of dumbing down.

Making conscious decisions whether to follow one's group or not is entirely conscious and a very common decision, fraught with all sorts of implications. When to align with a group, when to break away are decisions many people have to make at various times in their lives. The decision to simulate continued allegience with a group while secretly breaking away is where we get the concept of "intrigue". This also informs countless group dynamics, including the dreaded office politics. This conscious decision of whether to follow a group or not is so central to human experience that it has become a plot point in stories of every sort, plays, novels and movies.

Protection of the group is not always the prevailing, top value in all NTs. NTs are no more homogenous than auties and aspies are. Some NTs are very connected to the group. Some will follow the group no matter what. Some NTs are highly individualistic. They resist conformity for the sake of conformity. Some NTs are altruistic and concerned with others more than themselves and some NTs really couldn't care less about others, especially at a consequence to themselves. You seem to be saying that NTs cannot utilize logic as if they are somehow akin to a bunch of lemmings. I think thinking of NTs as flawed as a whole like that makes as much sense as NTs thinking of Aspies as flawed as a whole. NTs could turn around and say that Aspies cannot follow logic because of their rigidity and insistence on routines. Which we know is nonsense for most people on the spectrum.

Besides, I think self preservation is one of the top human instincts, is it not?

I apologize if this comes of as harsh or argumentative. It's just that I have a history of reacting strongly when NTs lump all Aspies/Auties together and describe them in negative terms and I react equally strongly when Aspies/Auties lump all NTs together and describe them in negative terms.

Perhaps it is because I belong to neither group, or both groups, depending upon how you look at it, so I feel offended on behalf of both sides. On that aspie quiz I come out having something like 103 of 200 NT and 97 of 200 Aspie. I do have almost equal traits of both and I think I do utilize logic at times and non-logic at other times. Surely I am not the only one on the planet like me.

I always had a hard time understanding why the decision to follow the group or not in those plots was so agonizing. Usually the choice was obvious. But then, I rarely even ask myself whether to go along with the herd - it usually doesn't even occur to me that it might be desirable to do so. There's the other extreme for you.

Exactly. These processes are so instinctive and unconscious that no one is aware of them, certainly not at the time of action.

Reminds me of my NT therapists and social workers all swearing to me that there's no such thing as Theory of Mind or empathic grasp of another's state of mind, because they had never noticed them.

I don't understand it myself either. If I had faulty information and I was wrong about something I would want to know where I was wrong and why I was wrong. Didn't Jesus say "Do unto others as you would want done unto you?" Is this not the Golden rule? I want to know where and why I'm wrong on things. By Jesus Christ's Golden rule why wouldn't I do the same for others? I don't understand the rationale behind this.

Here is another problem with me. I would not be able to accept that it's just the way it is. I don't just go by the rule itself. I need to have the rationality behind the rule or I can't literallly function. I use patterns, logic and rationality to attempt to make sense of the world. Your child sounds like he is structure-dependent. I am rational-dependent. It would end up that I would be going through a Socratic Interrogation with you.



I understand the logic behind this.



No for me it is trying to simply understand things and wanting others to understand things. All I am doing is following Jesus Christ's Golden rule.

I do not necessarily agree with it BUT it is an interesting article.

http://autisticsymphony.com/jca.html

TheSunAlsoRises

Only because you know the truth doesn't mean you have to inform others of it. What are you, a charity organization?

Simply sharing of ideas, opinions, and information(some relevant, some not).

Now, IF someone comes along and tries to make it their truth; I'm afraid that is their responsibility.

In fact, i submit that just about any noted historical figure who followed a different path could be analyzed as having some traits of Autism YET be non-Autistic.

Perspective, my friend; simply a perspective on quite a few occasions.


TheSunAlsoRises

i get this so much. honestly i'm the same.

One of my friends recently had a go at me for correcting him on something, because i felt that it was right to do so. His reaction was "for f**k sake, why do you always have to correct everyone?"

i know that some people see it as "superiority" or whatever, but honestly i don't even think about it, i just like facts to be facts. it's not something that i can control, but its something that people have a go at me for.

GiantHockeyFan , I see that you have same problem as I did. Look, it is simple. You must learn motivation of other, His motivation is want to

be cool whatever that is, and that include being right. Of course, you are right about the rules, and if i am not mistaken about you then you

think that the point is about playing the game and do that within the rules that has been set up. Well, his motivation has something to do

with social rules, he point out the rules(the wrong one) with a motivation either that by knowing the rules that he can gain advantage or just

to look more knowledgeable or maybe he just like to talk nonsense. Either way, you point out his mistake. This Is IMPORTANT! He is using

technique that shove his mistake into you, He using that to influence other people to see you as a dick! You have to understand this !

People dont see logic as you do!! they only see dynamic and power. who is more powerfull and who is seem to be right.

It has

been painfull for me to understand this. So next time.. know his technique use it against him! just be carefull if he is violent he will use

violance against you (most people dont understand how to use wit they then use force). Anyway, school was tough but after that well ..

use your aspie to your advantage, you will be ok in life

Thanks for the response falsch. Yes, you understand my situation very clearly. Like I said, this has happened many times in my life (my brother was a PRO at it) and I ALWAYS come across as the jerk when I'm just trying to be reasonable, fair and logical. Of course, when my Aspie meltdowns hit it makes the situation much, much worse. I have little to worry about violence as an adult but as a kid oh boy did that every happen a lot as a teen and I have the bruises to prove it. Likely I did something similar without even being aware: inadvertently challenge an Alpha male and paid the price. I never understand why I was attacked because I don't think the same as most. It's all making sense now!

Bottom line: this thread was one of my all time best learning experiences. I now get why he acted that way even if I don't really understand it if that makes any sense. BTW, guess who we are playing in the playoffs next week? Should be interesting!

But now you are infinitely wiser, so you have the upper hand! Good luck!