Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to

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AngelRho
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19 May 2015, 5:50 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.



RhodyStruggle
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19 May 2015, 9:39 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

Two semesters of real analysis, wasted!


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AngelRho
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20 May 2015, 6:24 am

RhodyStruggle wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

Two semesters of real analysis, wasted!

:lol:



GoonSquad
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20 May 2015, 7:42 am

AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

numbers are a product of a chemical/biological/physical process of your brain.

That`s all. If you want to see the physical manifestation of numbers, go look at the FMRI of someone thinking about numbers.


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AngelRho
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20 May 2015, 9:24 am

GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

numbers are a product of a chemical/biological/physical process of your brain.

That`s all. If you want to see the physical manifestation of numbers, go look at the FMRI of someone thinking about numbers.

In other words, they aren't real. You don't believe in numbers.



aghogday
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20 May 2015, 9:47 am

GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

numbers are a product of a chemical/biological/physical process of your brain.

That`s all. If you want to see the physical manifestation of numbers, go look at the FMRI of someone thinking about numbers.


Breathing is a physical manifestation of all mammal life.

Some humans are serial killers and some unconditionally love.

There are a synergy of innate and environmental factors that lead to both.

Numbers are much more than chemical/biological/physical processes of the brain.

You seem to be missing the environmental boat here; there is no chance that Algebra
happens in just one life; without human abstract language, collective intelligence and
complex cultures. That's a huge boat compared to innate physiological processes, alone.

It takes a village to produce numbers; and a very big village and environment of collective
abstract written language to ever get there. And the issue truly from the get go is, are numbers
even important to truly living life. Numbers; the obsession with them in mechanical cognition;
can drive almost any truly sane human being, insane; if they escape the condition of human being.

There are many examples of that through history; and chances are if it isn't for the numbers and school;
those folks will just be enjoying life in animal homeostasis, otherwise known as the heaven of now; as a freely
associating socially cooperative mammal. Sometimes the stuff we think is the most important is what is killing
us now, slowly surely, as suicide of human being. The spiritual life of human emotions in self awareness in mind
and body balance of soul, and heart of feeling, and expressing feelings and senses through cognitive and affective
empathy is real. Numbers are more or less cardboard boxes of labyrinths straight to human hell; with stops in
illusions of what is real. To view them as tools is great; to view them as real, as human socially cooperative life

CAN be death of human being; if too much time is spent there in mechanical cognition land; and yes, science
shows this as truth as well now, as a life spent in mechanical cognition represses social cognition, and is
a leading cause of the death in metaphor of human being social cognition being in mind and body
balance; including the loss of physical intelligence that science also is beginning to show
regulates emotions, integrates senses, and enhances cognitive executive functioning
through greater focus and short term working memory. Numbers and all other
ways of mechanical cognition are far removed from naturally evolving human
being. Moreover, these cultural processes are human death rather than
true human spiritual nature alive and well in emotions, senses, and
mind and body balance. Eastern Philosophies have all naturally
understood this with little empirical science for thousands
of years. Science is just now catching up of course as
science has neither human senses or feelings to
even understand what human being is
naturally evolved to live and
thrive as, in human
mind and
body
balance.

A leading Neuroscientist determines he has all the biological markers
of a psychopathic potential serial killer. The difference between him
and his other murderous relatives is he is raised Catholic and has
the unconditional love of a mother. Neither the mother's love
or the specific benefits of religion can be measured here
by empirical science; but the common sense of IT for
those who have it IS the difference between
Lizzie Borden and friends; and a highly
respected Neuroscientist, at least in
part, of truly human being
socially cooperative
life, as is for
now.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/?no-ist

Humans cannot be reduced to MRI's, or other medical scanning equipment of modern medical science.
The simple reason is epigenetics and neuroplasticity; humans are not science projects they
are ongoing works of art who do flow with the environment both upstream
and downstream in just one lifetime, depending on both innate
and environmental issues. And the greaTEST lesson of all
in life is learning innately and environmentally to
master one's mind and body in balance
through the real synergy of human
emotions and senses known
as relative human free will.

Some folks master their
minds and bodies in
balance, in light,
and some
folks continue
to be mastered
by the cultural
and biological
environment as
a force of dark
instead.

The difference between a neuroscientist and a serial killer
is the power of both the cultural environment and
the relative free will of the human mind when
potential innate villain becomes a rock
star of neuroscience
instead.

Or a potential serial killer
becomes a real rock star,
or just another
savior of a
species or
two..:)

The sum of human will always be greater than the parts.

Only a 'real fool' could be limited to thinking anything else, who as even lived
this life fully to a small degree, as more fully human
being.

And to be clear all of this is just general information, not directed at anyone
personally here, including you of course, friend; but science is way too
limiting to understand the spiritual stuff of life.

It's just a tool;

Nothing else; and a very small one at that; in coming close
to understanding each Unique human Universe in emotions
and senses of mind and body in balance
or not, as soley in one soul
perceived as
Universe within,
outside, above
so below,
and all
around
as an entire Universe
of individuAlly perceiving Spiritual life large
or small as ant of human being;
not much of
anything
more fully
alive and VIBRANT
in human spiritual
energy of emotions
and senses in synergy
of real human
power
expressed
as such.


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olympiadis
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20 May 2015, 10:33 am

RhodyStruggle wrote:
Two semesters of real analysis, wasted!


Truth.
:D



GoonSquad
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20 May 2015, 5:28 pm

AngelRho wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

numbers are a product of a chemical/biological/physical process of your brain.

That`s all. If you want to see the physical manifestation of numbers, go look at the FMRI of someone thinking about numbers.

In other words, they aren't real. You don't believe in numbers.


Umm, brain states are real. They can be measured and observed in a number of ways. Numbers (as we think of them) are produced by brain states and they are real too.

It's very simple. :D


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aghogday
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20 May 2015, 6:23 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

numbers are a product of a chemical/biological/physical process of your brain.

That`s all. If you want to see the physical manifestation of numbers, go look at the FMRI of someone thinking about numbers.

In other words, they aren't real. You don't believe in numbers.


Umm, brain states are real. They can be measured and observed in a number of ways. Numbers (as we think of them) are produced by brain states and they are real too.

It's very simple. :D


Numbers; as imaged symbols,
remembered by brain states; highly likely.

Numbers produced by brain states, alone; absolutely no.

Numbers are produced on the back of written language in
collective human intelligence, and centuries of hard work
by many humans working interdependently
together to produce the abstract symbols out
of nature that we now remember as numbers, as is;
again, very likely a byproduct of brain processes in visually
remembering the symbol; not unlike what a flower looks like.


The only innate parts of culture for humans are verbal language
and non-verbal language; the rest is culturally derived, and math
is a rather complicated part of culture that much interdependent
work of centuries, once again, going IN work to make what we
know today in collective intelligence even possible as we 'see'
in modern
culture.

Put a human naked, as a child out in the woods; before school;
and 'you' just have another wild naked animal; that does have the
potential of getting stronger; than the humans I do 'business' with
everyday; if they survive; which is very unlikely, as most other animals
out resource humans, in potential to survive in the wild, without complex
culture. Humans are connecting social animals who do the wild thing a whole
lot to survive. Other than that; there is extremely complex culture that is the
tool that makes humans the apex of stupidity, in living out of balance with the
rest of nature. Once again, humans are not the virus strangling the earth;
but manufactured tools of human culture, most definitely are, including
numbers that also lead to nuclear tools of potential mass destruction.


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slave
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20 May 2015, 8:16 pm

Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


You need to supply us with a definition of a 'spiritual thing'.
I do not know what that term means, in practical terms.
The etymology of the word spiritual will not help either.



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21 May 2015, 3:42 am

slave wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


You need to supply us with a definition of a 'spiritual thing'.
I do not know what that term means, in practical terms.
The etymology of the word spiritual will not help either.


Spiritual:

An arbitrary term used in place of many phrases, among them "I don't have an answer".



AngelRho
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21 May 2015, 6:06 am

GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical.

You believe numbers aren't real.

numbers are a product of a chemical/biological/physical process of your brain.

That`s all. If you want to see the physical manifestation of numbers, go look at the FMRI of someone thinking about numbers.

In other words, they aren't real. You don't believe in numbers.


Umm, brain states are real. They can be measured and observed in a number of ways. Numbers (as we think of them) are produced by brain states and they are real too.

It's very simple. :D

Brain states are brain states. Brain states are not numbers. Numbers are numbers. I want to see a physical number. Not a numeral. Not a symbol that represents numbers. Not a brain state of someone thinking about numbers. I mean an ACTUAL number.

If you say numbers are real, you're admitting that things and ideas beyond physical reality are real.

You could write the number "1" or spell it out "one," or even use a variable in its place. Fine. But all that does is manifest a physically written symbolic language the represents the abstract. If that counts as "real," then God is real by virtue of the fact I can write the word "God." If numbers are real by virtue of the fact that thinking of numbers induces a brain state, then the spiritual world is real by virtue of the fact that it induces brain states.

Do you agree that merely thinking about things does not magically bring them into physical existence? Or can something be real that isn't physically manifested?



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21 May 2015, 10:46 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Brain states are brain states. Brain states are not numbers. Numbers are numbers. I want to see a physical number. Not a numeral. Not a symbol that represents numbers. Not a brain state of someone thinking about numbers. I mean an ACTUAL number.

If you say numbers are real, you're admitting that things and ideas beyond physical reality are real.

You could write the number "1" or spell it out "one," or even use a variable in its place. Fine. But all that does is manifest a physically written symbolic language the represents the abstract. If that counts as "real," then God is real by virtue of the fact I can write the word "God." If numbers are real by virtue of the fact that thinking of numbers induces a brain state, then the spiritual world is real by virtue of the fact that it induces brain states.

Do you agree that merely thinking about things does not magically bring them into physical existence? Or can something be real that isn't physically manifested?



I agree.



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22 May 2015, 10:04 am

AngelRho wrote:
Brain states are brain states. Brain states are not numbers. Numbers are numbers. I want to see a physical number. Not a numeral. Not a symbol that represents numbers. Not a brain state of someone thinking about numbers. I mean an ACTUAL number.

If you say numbers are real, you're admitting that things and ideas beyond physical reality are real.


Okay, if you insist on defining numbers in that way, then, no, numbers as you want them to be do not exist.

Numbers are simply tools, cognitive tools, that human beings use to make sense of the world. It's just a tool humans use to quantify actual physical objects, but the tool itself is not, and needn't be, physical, except as a brain state because that's where they are used.

It's the same with scientific laws. Newton's laws of motion aren't "real" as you'd like to define them. They don't exist anyplace except in a person's brain--used as a framework to understand and predict how things move in the real, physical world.

What actually causes things to move the way they do is something else again. BUT, there's no justifiable reason to think that this 'something else' isn't completely contained in the real, physical world as well.

Quote:
You could write the number "1" or spell it out "one," or even use a variable in its place. Fine. But all that does is manifest a physically written symbolic language the represents the abstract. If that counts as "real," then God is real by virtue of the fact I can write the word "God." If numbers are real by virtue of the fact that thinking of numbers induces a brain state, then the spiritual world is real by virtue of the fact that it induces brain states.


I can totally agree that thinking about God and the spiritual world induces a 'real' brain state. However, there is NO REASON to think that God or the spiritual world exist beyond the brain state they induce.

Your reasoning does not compute here.

Quote:
Do you agree that merely thinking about things does not magically bring them into physical existence?

As I stated before, the act of thinking DOES make the abstract exist as a physical brain state. However, it does not bestow existence beyond that.
Quote:
Or can something be real that isn't physically manifested?


I honestly don't know. BUT, what I do know is that we are not justified in using logic and scientific/positivist methods to try to establish this.

As Pascal said, "Some things we know by our reason, and other things we can only know via the heart."

Things like God and the spiritual world can only be known by the heart. When we try to use reason to justify belief in these things we get pseudo-science and generally sloppy thinking.

If you feel compelled to PROVE your spiritual beliefs with logic and science, I'd say you need to take a few minutes to ask yourself why that is...

Personally, I think it's indicative of a problem. As Darth Vader put it, " I find your lack of faith disturbing."


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22 May 2015, 10:18 am

olympiadis wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Brain states are brain states. Brain states are not numbers. Numbers are numbers. I want to see a physical number. Not a numeral. Not a symbol that represents numbers. Not a brain state of someone thinking about numbers. I mean an ACTUAL number.

If you say numbers are real, you're admitting that things and ideas beyond physical reality are real.

You could write the number "1" or spell it out "one," or even use a variable in its place. Fine. But all that does is manifest a physically written symbolic language the represents the abstract. If that counts as "real," then God is real by virtue of the fact I can write the word "God." If numbers are real by virtue of the fact that thinking of numbers induces a brain state, then the spiritual world is real by virtue of the fact that it induces brain states.

Do you agree that merely thinking about things does not magically bring them into physical existence? Or can something be real that isn't physically manifested?



I agree.


And you're wrong too. :P


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22 May 2015, 11:16 am

GoonSquad wrote:
I honestly don't know. BUT, what I do know is that we are not justified in using logic and scientific/positivist methods to try to establish this.

As Pascal said, "Some things we know by our reason, and other things we can only know via the heart."

Things like God and the spiritual world can only be known by the heart. When we try to use reason to justify belief in these things we get pseudo-science and generally sloppy thinking.

If you feel compelled to PROVE your spiritual beliefs with logic and science, I'd say you need to take a few minutes to ask yourself why that is...

Personally, I think it's indicative of a problem. As Darth Vader put it, " I find your lack of faith disturbing."


That's a good point. Religions attempt to confine GOD as a word; an abstract term, without a clear definition.

And by very definition something that exceeds the purview of human being cannot be adequately defined or described with abstract written language, alone.

So in other Words God MUST be incomplete as viewed by human. Fortunately we now have the eyes of science to show us just how little we do know of the Universe from small to large that God encompasses more fully than human eyes and ears can see and hear alone.

It's not surprising that someone living in an arid desert has a limited view of God as an anthropomorphic being, when there are few mountains, and human is seen most often as the biggest thing on the landscape.

Truly, if telescopes are available then; Abrahamic religions will likely never get off the ground; particularly in a paradise like the Florida Gulf Coast where I live with sugar sand beaches, emerald green gulf, sea oats waving in golden spiral flow with waves; and seagulls 'following' along in golden spiral flight around the Sun.

It's easy to see God for those with larger eyes than words as human alone in REAL paradise

I do NOT NEED Faith to see God, as God is inside me, outside me, above so below, all around me.

It's sad when people limit God to human skins and skeletons of forms of a three letter word, or big black book, when God is SO much more than what most humans see of God with text eyes only and human skin in terms of just a three letter word.

And honestly, for someone who lives with life out of a desert of both environment and soul, heart, and spirit in terms of what these human attributes are in all REAL Natural life; it's not hard to 'see' that God is the Interdependent Relationship of All That IS that we all depend on; cannot escape in life; and with the purview of Infinity looming; perhaps not in death, as well. THAT is beyond the pay grades of all humans, scientists or not, forevermore now.

To live in balance with other humans as socially cooperative animals and the rest of Nature is to thrive and prosper.

In terms of what is really real, per evolved human being; anything else from math to science is pure abstract nonsense, and insanity as well; literally speaking, too.

Humans who become machines by living a live of mechanical cognition are truly no different than folks who value material success and riches over being human.

In "Layman's" terms; per heart, soul, and spirit; 'they' most definitely can literally lose their mindful awareness in mind and body balance aka Soul, 'tHeir' broad rich nuanced emotional life aka HeArt; and the ability to express themselves in reciprocal social communication with both cognitive empathy and affective emotional empathy fully in tow and expression; both verbally and non-verbally in flesh and blood connecting life with both humans and the rest of Nature, aka GOD aka Spirit.

Honestly, all this, is just human common sense 101; a faculty of human gifted to 'us' from birth from the God of Nature; for those of us who find a way back to Nature and God, one and same.

OMG, 'human beings' make life so much more complicated, stressful, ignorant, and truly repetitively insane, than it can be, when simply understood of what life really is, per balance with Human being Nature and General Nature aka God.

Forage, eat, drink, reproduce, and as importantly, 'dance' Life in ART aka GOD.

And yes, by all means do sleep a restful day or night in peace.

A move away from mechanical cognition is human being.

A move toward mechanical cognition is well;
just that; mechanical cognition
aka
'Robot Life'.


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