dualism

Post Reply New Topic

mind and matter are compose of differt elements but this comes into conflint with matrelism

just something i cameup with

your opions welcome



he sure is (paroit act)

I'd go with materialism over dualism. No mind has existed without matter but matter exists without the mind. The mind is just a complex device made out of materials that ultimately just does reacts in very complex ways with the environment, just like a computer does to some extent. At least that is how I view it.

We function just fine without a ghost in the machine, thank you.

we don't really know that for sure...

Ok, well, perhaps I was a little too absolute with that statement, however, a mind existing without matter has never been observed. Because it has never been observed and there is no reason to assume that it may or does exist, it can be assumed that it does not exist just like we assume that pink polka-dotted elephants don't exist. Let's just look at it this way, we know that the human mind, the only mind actually known for certain by man, is the result of materials put together in a certain way to create the ability to think and that this mind can be altered by physical changes, so why assert the reality of a mental plane if that plane is subject to the physical? For all of reality that we know of, the mind is subject to the matter but not the converse, so why make the jump to a mental plane when reality can be better explained through this simpler answer?

I think the actual "energy" the body uses might be something.. After all, the human is nothing but a computer shell without 'energy' to run it.. Zap it with energy and the mind/body works

The energy the body uses is chemical energy from food. It really isn't much unless you really want to philosophize on a hamburger.

chemical energy, there isnt 'hamburger' pulsating from my brain to my fingers when I tell my hands to move..

I tihnk its deeper then a smart ass comment

No, the hamburger is broken down into more usable parts and technically speaking what you are talking about is nerves, which are not what I would consider to be the body's energy but rather its communication system. Nerves simply work through using electro-chemical reactions involving ions which are dispersed at certain times in order to convey information. This is still an action based upon the physical properties of the body, and it is one with less mystery as we a better understanding over a lot of this compared to our knowledge of the brain.

ok I see that..

I just saw the energy provided life as the brain uses energy to operate. Much like a computer, without power, it does nothing but provide it power, it turns on and does multiple things. Which would have to ask the question - the combination of mind, body and energy create's life - is the brain "body" or is it "mind" and if so, how does 'energy' turn that on and what did it turn it on 'from' (meaning, before, this system existed but had no energy to make it 'conscious' or 'alive' so what was going on it before)..

God its confusing

Without energy the brain is dead and nonfunctional. There is nothing when the body is dead. Energy is just sustenance without which the body dies as the body needs energy to function and maintain.

I entertain and suggest the thought that a secondary electro-magnetic current may be induced by our nervous system, disappaiting anywhere from instantly to slowly over a matter of years. 'Splains a lot, stays scientific, and it could persist indefinately though reinforcement from extant energy sources.

If you need a good example of how long waves can last, fill your tub with water, swirl it rapidly clockwise(or counter clockwise) and leave it for a day. 24 hours later, drop a tooth pick in it near an edge. No guarantees, but waves can persist for a very long time. Electricity is a wave too, and far less influenced by frictional forces.

Just like the computer is 'dead' when it's switched off. But that doesn't mean the user of the computer is dead. He just walked off to somewhere else. He may also start using another computer.

A large part of the world's population believes this. To me it seems quite reasonable too. I haven't ever seen a computer build itself or switch itself on (unless a human programmed it to do so) - that's what I find missing in the metaphors that compare humans to machines.

The same goes for the recent so-called 'progress' made in the latest scientific fad, the neurosciences: just more detailed descriptions of mechanisms, but nothing basically new (just measure something a bit more precisely, and you can fool people into believing you've done something totally new. You don't need any new arguments, new insights, nothing but a measuring tape with a few finer lines on it) - which is typical of Western thinking for about a hundred years now: there's so much infatuation with the glitter and glamour of machines and devices and measurements and statistics and quantities that those folks who dare ask questions about things like meaning and quality are considered to be not quite of this world - wrong planet, so to say.

And that's why dualism is still a meaningful philosophical position. Machines, even the most clever ones, don't care about meaning and quality. They don't care about anything - they just are, and they don't even know it, because they can't know anything. No aspies among the machines either. Since they know nothing, they also don't know what a problem is.

some good points there darkenergy. ties in somewhat to what i've been trying to say in the clockwork orange thread. perhaps you add a few words there, awsomelyglorious and TheMachine1 have been ganging up on me...

I don't know how to label what I think.
I think that there is indeed a "spiritual" side of reality, but not that it would be somehow separated from ours.
It's all parts of the same universe, just that our ability to perceive it all is varying a bit, and are generally very, very low.
In short, there are stuff we can't see, but it's also a part of the universe.
Thought, mind, abstract ideas, etc. do exist, but only as, perhaps, complex patterns of energy.

The body dies when it is dead. The brain goes along with it as well. The brain is not the user of a computer, but rather the result of the device. If the mind were the user then we could not affect it so easily through affecting the structure of the brain. Obviously if we can affect the mind through the brain, then they must be linked and given the nature of the physical machinery of the brain, the most likely idea is the mind is the result of the brain.
Human beings are more adaptable than computers and use better technology than machines, also human beings never turn off. They sleep but they never stop. The points you bring up do not display that human beings have a different philosophical quality but only that they are physically different.

Progress does not need the apostrophes. What we do through better description is still worthy of the term as we better understand how the device works and how to manipulate it as we desire. We learn better drugs to change its processing, we learn about psychology and how people act, we learn about its nature much better through our measurements and better knowledge is a new thing. We still get insights from our acts as well such as the evaluation of old psychological theories and of mental processes. Meaning and quality are useless questions from the role of logic, we can argue what systems do and their results, and we can discuss the quality of statistics and rigor of analysis, but we cannot logically come to any conclusion on human meaning, nor can we come to any conclusion on what quality is to a human being. These questions ultimately fall down to individuals to answer for themselves, as western civilization has recognized an inability to objectively answer these questions and sees no reason to focus on a fruitless act.

Machines are not as developed as the human brain, nobody denies that, however all the brain is only a very advanced information processing device, just like machines are. The brain is still just a device whose functioning can be altered by physicality and whose functioning was derived from physicality in the first place. There is no reason to even assume a mental plane except our own infatuation with ourselves and our glory. The brain is a physical device and works just like it was designed to, the only difference is complexity and purpose as the brain was designed to deal with the struggles of living and breeding.