Interesting article on the rise of Nazism in Greece

Page 1 of 2 [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

17 Oct 2012, 5:04 pm

Greece Special: The dark night of Golden Dawn

Do go read, those 'anti-racist'/'anti-fascist' British lefties who see "fascists" and "racists" on every street corner.

You want to see what the Real McCoy looks like rather than a bogeyman like Griffin? Try Greece.



MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

17 Oct 2012, 6:40 pm

it exists here in the states as well, and while you do have neo nazi's here, the term is so easily given out to describe conservative politicians that it is utterly meaningless.


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

17 Oct 2012, 6:43 pm

It's kind of what happens when people start to label things with the wrong label, they end up devaluing it until it has little meaning, then everyone is shocked when this devaluing of the label leads to larger parts of the population gradually identifying with the group they were trying to alienate in the first place.



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

17 Oct 2012, 6:45 pm

Just because The Gold Dawn are more successful doesn't mean that Nick Griffin isn't a Nazi. He's just a much less successful one.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

17 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm

It can happen anywhere. The rise of the Greek Nazis are an entirely predictable result of the conditions the Greek nation has brought on itself and been subjected too.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

17 Oct 2012, 7:14 pm

Tequila wrote:
Greece Special: The dark night of Golden Dawn

Do go read, those 'anti-racist'/'anti-fascist' British lefties who see "fascists" and "racists" on every street corner.

You want to see what the Real McCoy looks like rather than a bogeyman like Griffin? Try Greece.


Nick Griffin was a former NF steward and his ideological mentor Tyndall had a copy cat hitler youth brownshirt cadet club.

The BNP only tone down their nazi baggage as a PR stunt but once the cameras are off out come the combats, knuckle dusters and hitler memorabilia.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

17 Oct 2012, 10:44 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Just because The Gold Dawn are more successful doesn't mean that Nick Griffin isn't a Nazi. He's just a much less successful one.


He is, but he's a harmless buffoon that can be laughed at and ignored. The BNP and their ilk in Britain are like Sooty and Sweep to people like Golden Dawn and Jobbik. I can't make this clear enough - XA is the real deal. These are real, black shirted, goose-stepping Nazis. The whole shebang. And large numbers of the police in Greece (50%+ are the numbers quoted) are more or less sympathetic to them and collude with them.

The entire ideology of the party is different. Does Nick Griffin revel in violence committed against BNP members? Does he offer no condemnation when angry mobs composed of his members nearly kill people? Does he threaten to invade the nearest country? Do people even take this arsehole seriously?

I'm sorry, but vast majority of all those good 'anti-racist' centrists and leftists in Europe is completely blind as to the scale of what I'm talking about. Mark my words - this will come back to bite you people on the arse if more people don't realise what's going on. Non-Golden Dawn supporters in Greece are finding this out already and have been doing for years - XA rule through violence and fear and bigotry and hate and support for them is commonplace. Over 20% of Greeks now have a positive opinion of this lot. All the 'anti-racist' fears are happening in glorious Technicolor in Greece and Hungary with the connivance of the establishment.

Golden Dawn are very, very similar to a replica of the Nazis in the early 1930s - down to their dress sense, their policies, their penchant for violence, the extreme, hateful nature of their rhetoric, the support from people in authority; their hatred of pretty much everyone and everything that isn't "ethnic Greek" and so on. They even praise Hitler and use Nazi symbols in their party magazines!

I'm not just referring to that. If you look at the article (and others like it), you'll see what I mean.

Golden Dawn had, as their electoral slogan last time out, "cleansing their land of filth"; they call the disabled "undesirable"; is frequently linked to bloody raids on immigrant areas whilst the police stand by and do absolutely nothing; is widely believed by many in Greece (not just the far-left by any imagination) that most of the police in Greece actively support Golden Dawn; have MPs in their parliament are gaining support at a worrying rate, especially amongst the elderly and also the young; has had large mobs of its supporters storm buses, check the IDs of immigrants and beat them to a pulp; demanded the setting up of blood banks "for ethnic Greeks"; have demanded (and probably got) a list of the ethnic identity of all children in Greek schools and have been going round to beat them up (they say they didn't beat the children, but few people in Greece believe them) and forcibly ban them from all schools; where the police officers are openly telling anyone who has a problem with a violent attack on them by foreigners to go see the local Golden Dawn lads; whose MPs beat up female fellow politicians on live television; whose own elected MPs blocked a theatre play and shouted disgusting splittle-flecked racist and homophobic abuse along with mobs of their supporters at anyone wanting to see "blasphemous filth", talk about wanting to invade Turkey; and so on and so forth.

Here's a small list of the violence and intimidation committed by XA around over a week or so during the elections in June:

Quote:
June 17 early hours – A mob of seventy stops buses in central Athens, punches and kicks non-Greek passengers; similar attacks take place at three other locations in the city. Local kiosks of the leftist parties ANTARSYA and SYRIZA are vandalized and torched. In Chania (on Crete) a gang of four attacks two Algerians with knives and metal bars, sending them to the hospital.

June 17 night – A group of Golden Dawn supporters attacks an immigrant in an Athens subway station, as part of wider night of violence celebrating GD’s electoral success. In Chania, a homeless Egyptian immigrant is attacked with a metal bar, and is beaten so badly that he has to have emergency surgery to remove his kidney.

June 18 – Two teens punch non-Greek street sellers in Alimos and hit them with clubs. A Pakistani cyclist near Corinth is chased down by a group of six on motorbikes and beaten with clubs; police dismiss the attack as an inter-Pakistani feud and arrest ten of the victim’s friends for being undocumented when they visit him in hospital.

June 20 – Two teens attack street-sellers in Palaio Faliro.

June 21 – A group of ten thugs attacks immigrant street-sellers in Kalamaki.

June 23 – A Golden Dawn gang in the Athens suburb of Nikaia goes to every shop owned by a non-Greek and threatens violence if they don’t leave within a week; their visit is closely observed by police who do not intervene. In the Elaionas neighborhood of Athens, a group of twenty thugs attacks non-Greeks with clubs, then vandalizes four immigrants’ houses; later, the local “ordinary” Greeks attack the remaining immigrants; police respond to both attacks by arresting undocumented immigrants.


XA violence is now a constant in Greek life. IMO, this is the most pressing issue that Greece faces - and it's spreading to other countries as well (like Hungary). These are seriously dangerous times for Greeks and non-Greeks alike.

Another blog article by an atheist Greek blogger (in English): http://onthewaytoithaca.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/aorati-melani-i-am-here-to-stay/

It's like the difference between someone who has said a few angry things to his wife (but has never beaten her and is generally peaceable and loving) towards a psycho who beats and rapes not only his wife, but other women regularly and laughs about it.



Last edited by Tequila on 17 Oct 2012, 10:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

17 Oct 2012, 10:51 pm

TM wrote:
It's kind of what happens when people start to label things with the wrong label, they end up devaluing it until it has little meaning, then everyone is shocked when this devaluing of the label leads to larger parts of the population gradually identifying with the group they were trying to alienate in the first place.


Yup - such large parts of the peaceful conservative political spectrum have been associated with the 'far-right' so often and to such an extent that when a new party that comes along that is openly bloodthirsty and racist and is up to its eyeballs in violence and has widespread popular support, people stop believing them. The 'scare' tactics have backfired on the left.

This sort of thing is all the making of the European elites. It's just all so predictable and sad. If you humiliate and impoverish a proud nation like Greece and remove their democracy whilst making them your slaves, they will violently rebel and what will come then will be far worse than what came before. Unfortunately, it's innocent people who had nothing to do with this that will get hurt.

A letter in a Greek newspaper taken from the comments of that blog article:

Quote:
Chrysi Avgi’s ‘rule by brute force’ is a logical result – the other side of the coin – of the Imperial-style ‘rule by decree’ of the 3 last successive governments spanning the crisis. Two of these governments have been democratically elected – but any democratic accountability ceased thereafter. The sudden and unexplained catapulting of Greece into the arms of the Troika, the eternally opaque negotiations with the Troika, the scandalously self-preservatory choices made by all 3 governments at the cost of relentless impoverishment of the country (while ignoring the Troika’s structural demands)…

For those who have lived outside Greece the most striking phenomenon of the last 3 years has been the complete lack of information coming from parliament: lack of transparency, lack of presentation of options – yes, Greece has options and still does – external & internal propaganda and disinformation. Made worse by a cowardly (or just bought?) press which has refused its responsibility to force information into the open. For example, Kathimerini constantly refers to ’special interests’ but never names them.

Greeks have been led into this crisis more or less in the dark and remain more or less in the dark. And out of the dark steps Chrysi Avgi, a former lunatic fringe organisation.

Its grass root supporters are those who feel most powerless, are least educated and have the fewest options open to them. CA sells itself to children as young as 10 and 11 as a cross between Robin Hood and ‘True Patriot’. CA doesn’t wait for permission, it acts. From food drives for Greeks Only to storming through streets beating and stabbing foreigners – regardless of Taftotitas and including EU citizens.

Historically, it is worth noting that no fascist organisation has risen as far as Chrysi Avgi has today without powerful sponsors or tacit complicity from above. Greece has always had the option, as a democratic country – and as other EU countries have done – to simply outlaw fascism. In the case of Chrysi Avgi, where would powerful support (or complicity) be coming from?

ND has already let CA set the agenda on illegal immigration, and declared itself the party of the police, army and the Orthodox church. Both army and police are strongly CA, and Archbishop Ieronomos has not yet pronounced against CA. Meanwhile, though the country desperately wants new parties and new politicians, parliament is packed with the same old faces, with ND and especially PASOK battling for their political existence. Their main threat comes from SYRIZA.

With Samaras newly welcomed into the club of EU ‘statesman’ by Angela Merkel, I suspect that CA has become part of ND’s vote calculation against SYRIZA in possible early elections. It could be that self-preservation obsessed, dirt splattered politicians do not worry about opening Pandora’s box.


Outright fascists v near-communists grappling for power in a humiliated and undemocratic nation - how where have we heard this before in history?



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

18 Oct 2012, 10:08 am

Even if what you're saying is true, which i don't entirely agree with (Nick Griffin IS a genuine fascist-nazi) short of going to Greece to agitate or boycotting Greek yoghurt and skewer kebabs what do you expect British leftists and anti-fascists to do about it?

Just because Griffin is far less credible doesn't mean UK leftists should ignore the 'beast' at our own door, so to speak. Nor will this poster, when this piece of s**t came over here not more than a month ago to try to stir s**t during the Ulster convenant centenary. Stop trying to defend the indefensible. It only serves to cloud the distinction between UKIP and the BNP.

If you are so concerned about Golden Dawn, practice what you preach and go over to Greece to do something about it.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

18 Oct 2012, 10:20 am

Tequila wrote:
Outright fascists v near-communists grappling for power in a humiliated and undemocratic nation - how where have we heard this before in history?


Even if golden dawn seize Greece they are hardly likely to 'do a hitler' or bother anyone beyond their borders. They are economically and militarilly outflanked by powers with greater political stability in every direction. They will be quickly politically alienated with no obvious allies anywhere. If they try any funny business they will be usurped in a very short period of time.

Any ethnic cleansing will be met with very swift foreign intervention. The world doesnt tend to tolerate that sort of thing these days. Just ask Hussein and Milosevic.



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

18 Oct 2012, 10:52 am

thomas81 wrote:
Any ethnic cleansing will be met with very swift foreign intervention. The world doesnt tend to tolerate that sort of thing these days. Just ask Hussein and Milosevic.


"Tolerate" would be the wrong word to use, considering both Milosevic and Hussein were allowed to keep going for quite a while before foreign intervention happened. The same can be said about Rwanda and a few other African incidents of genocide. Even more recently, the lack of action by the international community to the situation in Syria.

It's one of those sad aspects of the UN and similar organizations being democratic and thus being held back from doing what's right by the 800 layers of democratic red tape. Sadly, when everyone has to add their 2 cents and agree to something, it takes a lot of freaking time to get anything done.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

18 Oct 2012, 10:57 am

the problem with the intervention in the Balkans and the Gulf is that the rationale for going in originally was built on a flimsy precedence and possibility for heavy bloodshed on both sides (in the case of Serbia).

Clinton's reason for going into the Balkans was an obvious distraction from the Monica Lewinsky affair which is why he dragged his feet.

If NATO had told the truth and had said they were going in to get Saddam, rather than inventing a cock and bull story about WMD's, wasting the time of UN weapons inspectors then I suspect that whole sorry affair would've been done and dusted more quickly than it had.

Anyway, this is for another thread.



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

18 Oct 2012, 1:40 pm

TM wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Any ethnic cleansing will be met with very swift foreign intervention. The world doesnt tend to tolerate that sort of thing these days. Just ask Hussein and Milosevic.


"Tolerate" would be the wrong word to use, considering both Milosevic and Hussein were allowed to keep going for quite a while before foreign intervention happened. The same can be said about Rwanda and a few other African incidents of genocide. Even more recently, the lack of action by the international community to the situation in Syria.

It's one of those sad aspects of the UN and similar organizations being democratic and thus being held back from doing what's right by the 800 layers of democratic red tape. Sadly, when everyone has to add their 2 cents and agree to something, it takes a lot of freaking time to get anything done.


Greece is kind of the birthplace of Western Civilisation, and as a result it hasn't dropped off the radar of the other EU countries. The difference with places like Rwanda and Syria is that with those nations, people think, 'meh, third world problems'. I have a feeling intervention in Greece would be swifter, though it would still have lots of red tape attached.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


outofplace
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,771
Location: In A State of Quantum Flux

18 Oct 2012, 1:52 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Tequila wrote:

Any ethnic cleansing will be met with very swift foreign intervention. The world doesnt tend to tolerate that sort of thing these days. Just ask Hussein and Milosevic.


Sadam Hussein was a butcher, but not an ethnic cleanser. In fact, his government was made up of people of multiple faiths. Now, he didn't treat the Kurds all that well (and this is an understatement!) but he was hardly trying to exterminate them either. His biggest sin was threatening to trade oil outside of the US Dollar. The same could be said of Libya and Syria too. This threatened the hegemony of the dollar in international trade, which is the one thing that has been keeping it relatively stable since the US went off the gold standard in 1971 under Nixon. In fact, the US was able to get the Saudis to agree to this shortly after Nixon took us off the gold standard in exchange for military assistance should it ever be needed.

Off the topic a bit, but the dollar's position in international settlements is now dying a slow death. Since the US was able to get Iran kicked out of SWIFT (the mechanism for international banking settlements), there are now multinational agreements to trade in native currency and gold rather than in dollars. These are not in effect with every country, but are regional in scope. Thus, just as the Fed has printed a huge surplus of US Dollars, their utility is dying. If a mass repatriation occurs then it could help spark hyperinflation in the US. While this alone would not cause hyperinflation (it requires a confidence crisis as well as a political decision on the part of the government to eliminate debt through inflation), it could be the spark that helps ignite it.


_________________
Uncertain of diagnosis, either ADHD or Aspergers.
Aspie quiz: 143/200 AS, 81/200 NT; AQ 43; "eyes" 17/39, EQ/SQ 21/51 BAPQ: Autistic/BAP- You scored 92 aloof, 111 rigid and 103 pragmatic


Jojoba
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 7 Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 260

18 Oct 2012, 3:13 pm

Sadly, I'm not terribly surprised that fringe groups are gaining in popularity in Greece, and other parts of Europe for that matter. European experts keep telling their people that the economic problems can be solved. Few reforms and upgrades are needed in government to bring back the good times. And yet despite all the promises, the economic problems grow worse. That is causing a lack of faith in government officials.

Saw today that another new plan is to be introduced soon to save Europe. This one looks to be getting off to a bad start. Some are already calling the ideas mentioned illegal. This isn't going to restore faith in European leadership. Overall, I hope a solution is found soon - as it is a dangerous situation.

"Europe Steps Back in the Clown Car"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... clown-car/

snippet:

Quote:
With EU ministers preparing for a major summit on Thursday, all eyes are on the latest plan to save the euro: unified supervision of Eurozone banking. There’s only one problem: the plan is probably illegal. As the FT reports, a top secret body of legal experts has advised EU finance ministers that current European treaties do not allow the creation of such a body:...