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Is America heading towards fascism?

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thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:02 pm

With the continuing public disatisfaction with the 2 party system and the growing popularity over fringe right wing figures like Ron Paul I do not see how much longer it can hold out.

As there is no appetite for a left of centre alternative in America, and without much apparent distaste for private control over public resources that leaves only one way it can go.

America needs to be careful otherwise it will be sound of jackboots over the oval office carpets.



Jacoby
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04 Nov 2012, 7:04 pm

You obviously have no idea what fascism is if you associate Ron Paul with it.



thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:30 pm

Jacoby wrote:
You obviously have no idea what fascism is if you associate Ron Paul with it.


Debateable. He's all about patriarchal power, anti-modernity, corporotocracy and ultra nationalism. Seems to check all the boxes to me.

Ron Paul is perhaps not inherently fascist however he is a sobering benchmark for where America could be heading if the useful idiots that support him grow in number.

Eventually the conservative project in America will fail and its more extreme adherents will blame the 'left wing segment' wanting a more extreme form of capitalism.

Seems to be the mentality in America, the conservative solution for economic chaos is to increase the disparity between the corporate world and the general population. Sort of like a fireman attempting to fight a fire by hosing petrol on it.



blackelk
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04 Nov 2012, 7:38 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You obviously have no idea what fascism is if you associate Ron Paul with it.


Debateable. He's all about patriarchal power, anti-modernity, corporotocracy and ultra nationalism. Seems to check all the boxes to me.

Ron Paul is perhaps not inherently fascist however he is a sobering benchmark for where America could be heading if the useful idiots that support him grow in number.

Eventually the conservative project in America will fail and its more extreme adherents will blame the 'left wing segment' wanting a more extreme form of capitalism.

Seems to be the mentality in America, the conservative solution for economic chaos is to increase the disparity between the corporate world and the general population. Sort of like a fireman attempting to fight a fire by hosing petrol on it.


Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


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Tequila
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04 Nov 2012, 7:41 pm

blackelk wrote:
Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


Indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ ... f_Ron_Paul

Indeed - it's libertarian to a tee. Stay out of everyone else's business, live within our means, develop peaceful civic nationalism, shrink the state and empower people to run their own lives.

It's about as unfascist as you can get.



Last edited by Tequila on 04 Nov 2012, 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:43 pm

blackelk wrote:

Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


That point alone hardly disqualifies him.

Fascist groups across the rest of the developed world, not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.

The problem with Paul and those like him is that the indigenous american population will feel the full brunt force of their reactionary policies.



Tequila
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04 Nov 2012, 7:44 pm

thomas81 wrote:
not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.


Switzerland must be the most fascist nation on Earth then.



blackelk
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04 Nov 2012, 7:44 pm

thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:

Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


That point alone hardly disqualifies him.

Fascist groups across the rest of the developed world, not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.

The problem with Paul and those like him is that the indigenous american population will feel the full brunt force of their reactionary policies.


How is a man who distrusts government, loathes it in principle actually, and wants to reduce its power, a fascist? This is pathetic. Paul is just about the least authoritarian candidate there is.


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Last edited by blackelk on 04 Nov 2012, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:46 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.


Switzerland must be the most fascist nation on Earth then.


I didnt say that anti interventionalism was the sole domain of fascists either. You're putting words in my mouth.



thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:47 pm

blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:

Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


That point alone hardly disqualifies him.

Fascist groups across the rest of the developed world, not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.

The problem with Paul and those like him is that the indigenous american population will feel the full brunt force of their reactionary policies.


How is a man who distrusts government, loathes it in principle actually, and wants to reduce its power, a fascist? This is pathetic. Paul is just about the least authoritarian candidate there is.


Fascism is an advanced form of capitalism. Fascism is when the state and corporations run as one, acting with mutual interest.

Free market capitalism (in its extreme sense) and fascism are inseperable. They are mutually implied.

Incidentally, both Mussolini and Hitler expressed an admiration for the beourgeoisie. They hated conventional politicians for the same reasons as Ron Paul.



Jacoby
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04 Nov 2012, 7:51 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You obviously have no idea what fascism is if you associate Ron Paul with it.


Ron Paul is not inherently fascist however he is a sobering benchmark for where America could be heading if the useful idiots that support him grow in number.

Eventually the conservative project in America will fail and its more extreme adherents will blame the 'left wing segment' wanting a more extreme form of capitalism.

Seems to be the mentality in America, the conservative solution for economic chaos is to increase the disparity between the corporate world and the general population. Sort of like a fireman attempting to fight a fire by hosing petrol on it.


Perhaps you are just ignorant of Ron Paul, libertarianism, Austrian economics but they are about as far away from fascism as humanly possible.

Corporatism is the prevailing thought in the 'mainstream' of both parties in America however and has been for quite a while.



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04 Nov 2012, 7:52 pm

thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:

Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


That point alone hardly disqualifies him.

Fascist groups across the rest of the developed world, not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.

The problem with Paul and those like him is that the indigenous american population will feel the full brunt force of their reactionary policies.


How is a man who distrusts government, loathes it in principle actually, and wants to reduce its power, a fascist? This is pathetic. Paul is just about the least authoritarian candidate there is.


Fascism is an advanced form of capitalism. Fascism is when the state and corporations run as one, acting with mutual interest.

Free market capitalism (in its extreme sense) and fascism are inseperable. They are mutually implied.

Incidentally, both Mussolini and Hitler expressed an admiration for the beourgeoisie. They hated conventional politicians for the same reasons as Ron Paul.


Yet Hitler and Mussoloni both wanted increased government power and centralization, while Paul wants the exact opposite. Paul was against bailouts of big business, against the Federal Reserve, etc. It's a stupid comparison. Quit while you're behind.


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thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

Austrian economics and Fascism in effect end in exactly the same way- the absolute power of the private sector over every facet of public life. The differences are cosmetic.



Jacoby
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04 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:

Yeah, God forbid we mind our own business, stop being the world's policemen and bombing the f**k out of everybody. So fascist.


That point alone hardly disqualifies him.

Fascist groups across the rest of the developed world, not excluding outright neo nazis are also arguing along the lines of anti interventionalism and staying out of foreign nations.

The problem with Paul and those like him is that the indigenous american population will feel the full brunt force of their reactionary policies.


How is a man who distrusts government, loathes it in principle actually, and wants to reduce its power, a fascist? This is pathetic. Paul is just about the least authoritarian candidate there is.


Fascism is an advanced form of capitalism. Fascism is when the state and corporations run as one, acting with mutual interest.

Free market capitalism (in its extreme sense) and fascism are inseperable. They are mutually implied.

Incidentally, both Mussolini and Hitler expressed an admiration for the beourgeoisie. They hated conventional politicians for the same reasons as Ron Paul.


lol no. Fascism is explicitly anti-capitalist and arguing otherwises is just plain dumb and shows you have knowledge of history.



thomas81
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04 Nov 2012, 7:54 pm

blackelk wrote:

Yet Hitler and Mussoloni both wanted increased government power and centralization, while Paul wants the exact opposite. Paul was against bailouts of big business, against the Federal Reserve, etc. It's a stupid comparison. Quit while you're behind.


What they were advocating was greater integration of big business with government. Not greater government in lieu of private power.

That is why the heavy industrialists were empowered members of the German nazi party.



Tequila
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04 Nov 2012, 7:54 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Perhaps you are just ignorant of Ron Paul, libertarianism, Austrian economics but they are about as far away from fascism as humanly possible.


Exactly. Classical liberals and libertarians generally hate the state and see it as an evil to be minimised and to get it out of as many areas of public life as possible (to what exact minimum is a matter of debate, with a spectrum). Fascists idealise the state and want it to triumph over all nations and peoples and for it to completely take over and dominate public life. They use state power to enforce their particular doctrine and hatreds and often use the state to declare war on minorities.