Does being male mean I can't have opinions about abortion?

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Jitro
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12 Nov 2012, 1:11 pm

And if so, why? Is that just an excuse that prochoice people try to make?



ruveyn
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12 Nov 2012, 1:13 pm

Jitro wrote:
And if so, why? Is that just an excuse that prochoice people try to make?


All of us are entitled to our opinions. We are not entitled to our very own facts.

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12 Nov 2012, 1:16 pm

According to some feminists, anything they disagree with is sexism and a product of the infamous patriarchy.



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12 Nov 2012, 1:16 pm

No, I don't think so. I think abortion is about killing an innocent baby, and everybody (whether man or woman) has the right to have an opinion about that, and to state whether they think killing innocent babies is right or wrong.

Of course, if people use selfish reasoning to try and claim that killing innocent babies is a good thing to do, they're wrong. But apparently, they have the right to that opinion (and the right to murder innocent babies) nonetheless. :roll:



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12 Nov 2012, 1:19 pm

Plodder wrote:
No, I don't think so. I think abortion is about killing an innocent baby, and everybody (whether man or woman) has the right to have an opinion about that, and to state whether they think killing innocent babies is right or wrong.


Depends on what week it is. Those who approve of abortion in the 24th week, would also approve of infanticide after a few years if it was made legal—and straw man anyone who did not.

On the other hand, a three week old fetus is not a human being anymore than an UML-diagram is a fully functional program.



Jitro
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12 Nov 2012, 1:22 pm

It seems like often even males who are prochoice will make the claim that males can't think that abortion is wrong because they're male.



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12 Nov 2012, 1:25 pm

We men will not understand abortion fully. To understand it you have to live as a woman. It's kind of an Inside Thing.


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ruveyn
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12 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

The problem can be approached in a sexually neutral way. All of us own our own bodies (male, and female both). All of us can dispose of the contents of our bodies as along is doing so does not present a health hazard to uninvolved genuine human persons. I as a male am free to have my vas deferens cut, and a female is free to have her tubes tied or a fetus removed from her uterus.

Simple, yes? Easy Peasy.

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12 Nov 2012, 3:18 pm

You are entitled to have an opinion on abortion. Everyone is, no matter their gender or religion or what have you.

You are not entitled to make the choice for someone else.


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12 Nov 2012, 3:24 pm

abacacus wrote:
You are entitled to have an opinion on abortion. Everyone is, no matter their gender or religion or what have you.

You are not entitled to make the choice for someone else.


So someone wants to go outside tomorrow and shoot someone.

They're making the choice themselves. Why should anyone be entitled to stop them?



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12 Nov 2012, 3:27 pm

robo37 wrote:
abacacus wrote:
You are entitled to have an opinion on abortion. Everyone is, no matter their gender or religion or what have you.

You are not entitled to make the choice for someone else.


So someone wants to go outside tomorrow and shoot someone.

They're making the choice themselves. Why should anyone be entitled to stop them?


I'm talking about abortion. Not murder. If you'd like to make your comparison worthwhile to this topic, convince me abortion is murder.

I'll be waiting, though I can't say I expect very much.


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12 Nov 2012, 3:34 pm

Kurgan wrote:
... a three week old fetus is not a human being anymore than an UML-diagram is a fully functional program.


:lmao:

Abortion = murder or abortion != murder? That's the question.


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robo37
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12 Nov 2012, 3:43 pm

abacacus wrote:
I'm talking about abortion. Not murder. If you'd like to make your comparison worthwhile to this topic, convince me abortion is murder.

I'll be waiting, though I can't say I expect very much.


The exact definition of murder is probably written to only apply exclusively to illegal cases but there is no dening that there is a life being killed here, the heart starts to beat after 3 weeks and the organism starts to move under it's own accord as it's brain start's developing thought. Babies have been recorded trying to escape from the suction tube many of times, which is actually worse then being shot in the head as the baby starts being ripped apart alive. Even which this point aside it's still immoral on the basis that you're denying the baby the chance to life, look up Gianna Jessen (a failed abortion survivor) on YouTube for a powerful insight on the subject.

Going back to my origional point, if you look at the pictures you can see it's clearly human and well developed even after just a few weeks of pregnancy. So it may not be 'murder', but it definetly killing another human being.



Kurgan
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12 Nov 2012, 3:45 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
... a three week old fetus is not a human being anymore than an UML-diagram is a fully functional program.


:lmao:

Abortion = murder or abortion != murder? That's the question.


Abortion at three weeks is different than abortion at 24 weeks. The anti-choice or pro-infanticide guilds don't think so.



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12 Nov 2012, 4:02 pm

robo37 wrote:
The exact definition of murder is probably written to only apply exclusively to illegal cases but there is no dening that there is a life being killed here, the heart starts to beat after 3 weeks and the organism starts to move under it's own accord as it's brain start's developing thought. Babies have been recorded trying to escape from the suction tube many of times, which is actually worse then being shot in the head as the baby starts being ripped apart alive. Even which this point aside it's still immoral on the basis that you're denying the baby the chance to life, look up Gianna Jessen (a failed abortion survivor) on YouTube for a powerful insight on the subject.

Going back to my origional point, if you look at the pictures you can see it's clearly human and well developed even after just a few weeks of pregnancy. So it may not be 'murder', but it definetly killing another human being.


The heart is an organ that makes blood flow around the body, no more, no less. A beating heart doesn't really mean anything.
A robot can move on it's own accord as well. It can also be equipped with sensors, and use that information to avoid danger. But the robot isn't truly alive. Even if a fetus tries to avoid the suction tube, it is more of an automated response than the fetus consciously trying to avoid it. Because the key conceptfor me is consciousness. If a fetus is not a sentient entity, then it won't feel joy, pain, dread, it won't feel anything because it's not yet able to. And in that case, the will of the mother, a conscious, fully developed human, prevails over the... not-will of a non-conscious human-to-be.

And if something looks physically human, it doesn't necessarily mean it is. Humanity comes from our brains.


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12 Nov 2012, 4:05 pm

Men can think whatever they want about any topic under the sun.

It's when they choose to ACT in a way that is detrimental to me is when I break out my beating stick.

Ditto that for women, transgenders, C.H.U.D.s, teenager mutant ninja turtles, cenobites, capuchin monkeys, ect.


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