Are there any good arguments against disestablishment?

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I haven't heard any cogent arguments against disestablishing the Church of England. The arguments I have encountered involve the idea that the CofE has a place as a 'cornerstone' of British culture, promoting tolerance and equality in public life. Only it doesn't. The evangelical wing of the church (the Charismatics and the Alpha Course) is the only one that isn't declining, and they threatened to pull their funding when a gay man was nominated as Bishop of Reading.

They've also listened to their evangelical wing again (who are still at the moment a minority, but won't be soon enough) and decided to not have women bishops. This is because the way the church works is that they need 2/3 of the vote to ensure that they bring 'everyone along with them' and that minority viewpoints are not neglected. They hold that this is a model that should be adopted in other areas of public life. I think it's very problematic to let minorities ret*d progress that the majority desires. If we had the same attitude in wider society, homosexuality would still be illegal.

I think a schism and disestablishment would do the Church itself the world of good. I have a lot of time for liberal Christians not only because I used to be one, but because I agree with their attitudes to social justice. If I was a CofE member, I would be hoping for a schism and disestablishment right now. I know the CofE prizes unity of the Christian community, almost, I think as a way to counter the influence and numbers of the Roman Catholics (although that conflict was supposed to be over centuries ago). I honestly think it goes against the Christian spirit to value power and numbers over right and wrong. I think the evangelicals would agree with me on this. Therefore and schism would serve both sides well.

Frankly, I can hardly see how Charismatics who like talking in tongues and doing faith healing can even be in the same church as people who sit in cathedrals for the music and struggle to even believe in God.

Also, I can't understand how the supposed 'benefits' of having an established church couldn't be provided by secular means. I just don't get how it is justified. Even the monarchy (a closely related institution) is more justified than this, in that the monarchy has its own unique benefits. You can argue 'it's tradition' - except it's not even as old as the monarchy and this country was Catholic before, and pagan before that. If we are going to argue from tradition, how about we have 26 members of the council of druids in the House of Lords?

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm especially interested in hearing from anyone who thinks the established church is a Good Thing, though I don't think I'll find any. This issue must seem rather parochial (pardon the pun) on an international forum like this, but I would like the hear what the rest of the world thinks about this institution.

NB - I am an atheist. Just making that clear.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 27 Nov 2012, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Is the Church of England very popular in the UK with a lot of members? When I think of the British culture, being an overly religious people isn't the first thing that comes to mind. Now it sounds like there are many Bible thumpers in the UK like there are here or am I exaggerating?

There aren't many bible-thumpers in the UK, but within the minority of people who are practicing (about 15% regularly attened services) their influence is growing. The UK is quite a secular country and it is becoming moreso outside of the churches. This means we need to question the relevance of the church (the CofE has 26 or 27 - I can't remember which - representatives in our unelected second chamber of parliament). You have to understand that British culture tends to cling to anachronisms, but I don't see how it would be compromising our culture to let some things go.

Also, in the major cities, immigrants from African countries and the Caribbean tend to be of the more evangelical mould. Hence the church claiming to represent the oppressed and the accusation that atheism is a white middle class affliction. Their take on this isn't that they are losing touch with the populace, so much as that the affluent populace is losing touch with 'the more important things in life'. I wish more black atheists would come out of the closet.

Governments have no rightful business in regulating, forbidding or establishing religions and churches. The only reason there is an established Church in your neck of the woods is due purely to an historical contingency. There is no principled reason for establish (or forbidding) a religion who practice is peaceable.

ruveyn

Where ARE all of you!?!?!??!?!?!?!

All of you fanatical defenders of ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM?

Here is DISestablishmentarian spouting her vile propaganda!

Are you all going to take it lying down?

Lol!

When I was around 10 some grownup told me that "antidisestablishmentarianism" was the 'longest word in the English Language'.

After four decades - I just now finally got to use the word in an actual conversation!

Wow!

Never thought that would happen ( I didnt realize that it was still a live issue in england).

Now all that I have to do is figure out how to work "supercalifragilisticexpealidotous" into this discussion and - my life will be complete!

Not often do we totally agree - but we do here.

If you're going to disestablish the church, will that lead to disestablishing the monarchy?

No "slippery slope" advocates?

I was wondering as much, myself - The Queen being head of the Church, and everything.

Lol, I was wondering when someone would take advantage of the chance to actually use the word 'antidisestablishmentarianism'.

It has only recently become a live issue again when the CofE voted against women bishops.

A similar discussion about disestablishmentarianism is going on in my native country of Denmark. We have a Evangelical Lutheran state church (not to be confused with the scourge, though).

However, women have had access to be ordained as ministers in Denmark for more than 60 years. And 3 of the current 12 Danish bishops are women. And homosexual marriage has just been approved in the Church in Denmark. In other words, no biggie.

Oh, and there are words in Danish which are longer than the 28 letter "Antidisestablishmentarianism".

Try the 51 letter "Speciallægepraksisplanlægningsstabiliseringsperiode" .

^What argument are used in favour of the established church in Denmark?

- That it is an integral part of the history of Denmark. This is an exaggeration, but not an outright lie. And slave trade is an integral part of the history of Denmark as well.

- That its "nice". (This is mostly true, as the state church in Denmark is about as a dangerous as a sloth smoking a pipe of marijuana)

- That it has wide popular support. This is true, since about 80 percent of the Danish populace are members of the state church... Although Denmark is the 2nd least religious country in the world by some estimates .