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ShamelessGit
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08 Dec 2012, 5:55 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.



eric76
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08 Dec 2012, 6:10 pm

While it was a regrettable incident, keep in mind that the two Taliban insurgents planting mines near them were the targets of the strike.

By the way, how many children have been intentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by US forces and how many children have have been intentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their supporters?

Also, how many children have been unintentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by US forces and how many children have have been unintentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their supporters?

Do you feel the same feelings of horror for the children killed by the Taliban, both intentionally and unintentionally?



pezar
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08 Dec 2012, 7:38 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


Most Americans have zero clue that all this is going on. The govt is very skilled at using bread and circuses to distract the sheep. Millions follow Kim Kardashian's every tweet, yet can't be bothered to look up US war crimes on the net or educate themselves about the Petro-Dollar system. Try discussing all this with the average office worker, you'll drown in nonsensical platitudes like "we're killing the terrorists there so they don't kill us here" that have been fed to them by the controlled media. Actually, since you mention the Nazis, Hitler was the first to discover how to control the masses effectively using propaganda. When Berlin fell, the propaganda masters were hired by the US. The result is robotic people who can't be reached no matter how hard you try.



ShamelessGit
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08 Dec 2012, 8:40 pm

eric76 wrote:
While it was a regrettable incident, keep in mind that the two Taliban insurgents planting mines near them were the targets of the strike.

By the way, how many children have been intentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by US forces and how many children have have been intentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their supporters?

Also, how many children have been unintentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by US forces and how many children have have been unintentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their supporters?

Do you feel the same feelings of horror for the children killed by the Taliban, both intentionally and unintentionally?


If you had seen the video, you would have seen that it was deliberate.

Also, I really doubt that the Taliban have killed as many children as the US military. If they had, then the afghans would hate the Taliban as much as they do the USA, and maybe we would have a chance of winning the war.

And maybe this is just because I'm brain washed, but if the Taliban did deliberately kill children, I would not expect any better of them. I do, however, expect better of my country.



MDD123
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08 Dec 2012, 8:54 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


I know women and children get killed by mistake a lot more often than we would care to admit. I find it chilling that we're at the point where we brush it off.

It's true that children are sometimes willing participants in attacks, for $5 they'll throw rocks at coalition vehicles. Unless they're posing an immediate threat (shooting at you), there is no reason to use lethal force on them.

I'm personally sick of all the ww2 entertainment out there, most people I know never participated in it, yet over half the people I know seem to take pride in it and accept a sense of moral superiority they/we never earned.

Putting it all in perspective though, insurgent groups not only kill more women and children indirectly (IEDs don't stop for kids), they also intentionally maim and kill children. Their behavior is vile, disgusting, and uncivilized. Ours isn't perfect, but we have more accountability any day.



DrHouseHasAspergers
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08 Dec 2012, 8:55 pm

The Taliban probably has killed more children and civilians than the US. The reason the Afghans don't hate them is simple: propaganda. As you so deftly pointed out, most Americans believe that what we're doing in Afghanistan is for the greater good because that's what the government tells them. Well, the Afghans think that the Taliban is working for the greater good for them, too. So what if a few kids and civilians die as long as they get what they want eventually?



eric76
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08 Dec 2012, 9:08 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
eric76 wrote:
While it was a regrettable incident, keep in mind that the two Taliban insurgents planting mines near them were the targets of the strike.

By the way, how many children have been intentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by US forces and how many children have have been intentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their supporters?

Also, how many children have been unintentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by US forces and how many children have have been unintentionally killed in the past ten years in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their supporters?

Do you feel the same feelings of horror for the children killed by the Taliban, both intentionally and unintentionally?


If you had seen the video, you would have seen that it was deliberate.


Why is that? Because some twit appearing in the video says so? Why should I take his word on anything? He is, after all, clearly biased.

Quote:
Also, I really doubt that the Taliban have killed as many children as the US military. If they had, then the afghans would hate the Taliban as much as they do the USA, and maybe we would have a chance of winning the war.

And maybe this is just because I'm brain washed, but if the Taliban did deliberately kill children, I would not expect any better of them. I do, however, expect better of my country.


You've got to be kidding? Have you paid any attention to the news at all? Or do you just read comic books and listen to twits with their own agenda who promote nothing resembling the truth at all?

Just a quick web search turns up these cases:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/south-asia/four-children-killed-as-taliban-target-school-bus-in-pakistan:

Quote:
Taliban gunmen attacked a school bus in north-western Pakistan yesterday, killing four children and the driver in an assault they said was carried out to punish local tribesman for resisting the insurgent movement.

At least 14 other children and two female teachers were wounded in the attack in Matani on the outskirts of the main north-western city of Peshawar, said police officer Ejaz Khan.

Two local tribal leaders in Matani have raised local militias to stop militant infiltration into Peshawar from the nearby border regions with Afghanistan. They get government financial and logistical help, and have killed or captured many militants over the last 18 months.

But they and their families have been ruthlessly targeted by the militants, which until three years ago were in control of the area. Its proximity to the tribal regions and the main northwestern city of Peshawar make it highly strategic.

"This was to teach them a lesson and we will continue to carry out attacks wherever and whenever possible no matter if it is a school or a school bus," said Mohammed Afridi, a Pakistani Taliban spokesman in the Dara Adam Khel region, which is close to Matani.

Officer Khan said five gunmen armed with assault rifles and rocket launchers attacked the van, which was taking students from the Khyber Grammar School. He said no rocket fire hit the van and that all students were boys between the age of 10 and 15.


http://paktribune.com/news/Taliban-kill-six-children-in-Dera-255211.html:

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Eight people, including six children, were killed in what a senior police official said was a remote-controlled blast targeting Shias taking out a Muharram procession in Dera Ismail Khan on Saturday.

Thirty others, including policemen, were injured in the blast, the police official, Jamilur Rehman, told journalists at the site of the blast, where Interior Minister Rehman Malik had said mobile phone service had not been suspended.

"It was a remote-controlled blast," Rehman said, adding security was stepped up and army was also called in to assist the civil administration.

The blast took place near an imambargah at Bannu Chunghi area where sectarian violence has taken lives of hundreds of people.

The Bomb Disposal Squad claimed the bomb weighed between eight to 10 kilogrammes.

Police said a 10-kilogramme bomb packed with ball bearings was hidden in a dustbin on the procession route and its powerful blast could be heard several kilometres away. Seven people, including four children, died soon after the blast and a man died later from his wounds in hospital, hospital officials told AFP.

"Two are still in critical condition," said doctor Azhar Ali, deputy chief of Nishtar Hospital in Multan.

City police chief Khalid Suhail said the dead children were aged between six and 11 years. "They were young boys," he said, adding two of them were brothers.

The Pakistani Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack. "We carried out the attack against the Shia community," spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan told AFP by telephone from an undisclosed location. "The government can make whatever security arrangements it wants but it cannot stop our attacks."


http://www.examiner.com/article/taliban-murder-children-blatant-violation-of-quran:

Quote:
Local authorities in eastern Ghazni province of Afghanistan report that Taliban militants on Saturday attacked an Afghan police officer, who refused to defect to their cause and brutally murdered his two children.

Provincial intelligence – National Directorate of Security (NDS) Chief Syed Amirshah Sadat confirmed the report and blamed the Taliban group for the attack.

The dead bodies of the two children including a 10 year old girl and 16 year old boy were taken to the hospital following the incident.

It is not known if the Taliban sexually violated the little girl before they savagely beat her to death.

The crime shocked even the most ardent supporters of the Taliban, who say the murders were completely unjustified and violated tenets of the faith of Islam. Specifically the prohibition against killing innocent people found in the holy Quran in 17: 33 – which reads: “You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.”

Relatives are calling for blood revenge against the Taliban for the vicious murders.

The mother in this case is besides herself with grief and unconfirmed reports suggest she is not eating and beseeching Allah (God) for justice against the killers.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/09/pakistan-the-schoolgirl-the-taliban-tried-to-kill.html:

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A courageously outspoken 14-year-old is fighting for her life in Pakistan tonight. Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head and the neck by unidentified gunmen on her way home from school today in Mingora, the largest city in the Swat Valley. The Pakistani Taliban quickly claimed responsibility for the attack. Ihsanullah Ihsan, a spokesman for the militants’ umbrella group, the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), told reporters in Peshawar that she was targeted for her anti-Taliban views. Two of her schoolmates were also injured in the attack.

...

The girl first gained international attention in 2009, after militants led by the TTP warlord Maulana Fazlullah had taken control of the previously idyllic valley. The Islamists terrorized the inhabitants with floggings and public executions, closing and sometimes destroying music stores, theaters, and girls’ schools. Yousafzai responded by writing a diary for the BBC Urdu Service describing life under the TTP, using the pen name Gul Makai.

I first met her that same year at the Peshawar Press Club. She was a smiling, confident girl, well-mannered but by no means shy. She shook hands with the assembled journalists one by one while her burstingly proud father, Ziaudin Yousafzai, introduced us as friends. Her eyes gleamed. The Pakistani Army had finally expelled Fazlullah’s fighters. Meanwhile, Malala had helped prove to the world that the terrorists and fanatics did not speak for all Pakistanis. Her countrymen were as proud of her as her father was. Last year she was one of five nominees worldwide for the International Children’s Peace Prize.

Now the militants have tried to put an end to that. Malala’s schoolmate Aisha Yousufzai, 16, spoke with her just as the younger girl was heading for the van that was to take her home. Malala was smiling and called out: “Aisha let’s catch up this weekend and have fish at the restaurant by the river.” Those are the last words she heard from her friend, Aisha tells The Daily Beast. “She was my ideal, but after today I don’t want to be like Malala anymore, or my fate could be the same,” says Aisha. “The Taliban are still on the loose in Swat. Their attempt on Malala’s life will make all of us afraid to go to school tomorrow, and no woman will raise a voice against the extremists.

The shooting took place in broad daylight, only yards away from a military checkpoint in Mingora’s Sharif Abad neighborhood. Eyewitness accounts were confused and contradictory. According to one of the injured students, the van was stopped by some men (none of them seems sure how many), and one of the men asked the driver if they could look and see if any of their children were inside. The driver told him no, that was against the rules. “The man came near the van and asked, ‘Which one is Malala Yousufzai?’” the schoolmate says. “We pointed to her and told them, ‘This is Malala.’ Then they opened fire.”

The driver says he was flagged down by two motorcyclists who asked whether the van was from the Khushal Public School. The driver says he told them to ask the school and pulled away. Then he heard shots. The students shouted to him that Malala and another girl were bleeding, and he drove straight to the local hospital, where her father asked that she be taken to CMH Peshawar.


It's time for you to open your eyes and see the real world. I have seen no evidence that the US troops in Afghanistan or anywhere else are intentionally targeting and murdering children. But it is clearly the case that the Taliban and others of their ilk have no problem at all targeting and murdering children.

So wake up.



ruveyn
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08 Dec 2012, 9:29 pm

The Taliban have been using kids to lay IEDs. Which makes them proper targets. They fall under the classification of franc tireur which have been kosher targets under prior rules of war.

From the wiki article:

Prisoner status

Before the two world wars, the term Franc-tireur was sometimes used for an armed fighter who, if captured, was not necessarily entitled to prisoner of war status. An issue of disagreement at the 1899 Hague Conference, the controversy generated the Martens Clause. The Martens Clause was introduced as a compromise between the Great Powers, who considered francs-tireurs to be unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture, and smaller states, who maintained that they should be considered lawful combatants.[6][7]
After World War II, during the Hostages Trial (or, officially, 'The United States of America vs. Wilhelm List, et al.), the seventh of the Nuremberg Trials, the tribunal found that, on the question of partisans, according to the then-current laws of war (the Hague Convention No. IV from 1907), the partisan fighters in southeast Europe could not be considered lawful belligerents under Article 1 of said convention.[8] In relation to Wilhelm List, the tribunal stated:
We are obliged to hold that such guerrillas were francs tireurs who, upon capture, could be subjected to the death penalty. Consequently, no criminal responsibility attaches to the defendant List because of the execution of captured partisans...[8]
The Geneva Conventions established new protocols, namely, according to Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, francs-tireurs are entitled to prisoner of war status provided that they are commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly, and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

-----------------------------------------

It is harsh but if the Taliban are going to use kids this way, Both they and the kids will suffer the consequences.

War is a bad business and the Taliban have made it worse.

ruveyn



eric76
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08 Dec 2012, 10:10 pm

I'm a bit puzzled why three kids would be digging holes in a road looking for dung.

I assume that the dung was oxen or something similar. I don't know about oxen, but I've been around a lot of cattle and horses as well as goats, sheep, and the occasional burro and I've never seen one of them dig a hole, take a dump into the hole, and then cover it up.

And whenever cattle, horses, or other animals are on a roadway, the little piles don't stay together long enough to dry out enough to be used as fuel because the vehicles driving down the road scatter it about pretty quickly.

If the kids were looking for dung, why weren't they out in a pasture or field or something instead of on the road?



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08 Dec 2012, 10:22 pm

Well why don't you go protest a drone control station if you care so darn much?



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08 Dec 2012, 11:41 pm

I'm willing to admit that no country is perfect. They all have biases, influences, morals and goals unique to the way they live. I like that America has gay rights (to a certain extent), women's rights and freedom of speech. I like that, in America, there is no caste system and one can rise to the top through hard work. Prejudices do exist here as well as poverty, homelessness, apathy and every vice under the sun. Still, I wouldn't trade imperfect America for a country that bans beer and forbids freedom of speech.



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08 Dec 2012, 11:57 pm

pezar wrote:
ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


Most Americans have zero clue that all this is going on. The govt is very skilled at using bread and circuses to distract the sheep. Millions follow Kim Kardashian's every tweet, yet can't be bothered to look up US war crimes on the net or educate themselves about the Petro-Dollar system. Try discussing all this with the average office worker, you'll drown in nonsensical platitudes like "we're killing the terrorists there so they don't kill us here" that have been fed to them by the controlled media. Actually, since you mention the Nazis, Hitler was the first to discover how to control the masses effectively using propaganda. When Berlin fell, the propaganda masters were hired by the US. The result is robotic people who can't be reached no matter how hard you try.


^^^ That's just what I was about to say. Look at the huge outcries that happened when the Kony 2012 video hit the net. If more Americans were made aware of unethical things that our government was doing, we would certainly do more to put a stop to it. The problem, though, is that most of us are too wrapped up in our own lives to look at the bigger picture, and it certainly doesn't help that our government hides things from us anyway (like the Watergate Scandal, the JFK assassination conspiracies, etc.)



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09 Dec 2012, 12:24 am

ShamelessGit wrote:
This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.


What makes me sick is all the idiots out there who create massive lies and distort the truth in every way imaginable in order to spread the craziest propaganda one can imagine to push their own agendas.

And all the idiots who fall for the propaganda make me even sicker. The video was nothing but propaganda.

By the way, I understand that it was artillery, not a drone. Where did you read that it was a drone? They aren't the same thing.

Quote:
The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with.


That has to be the biggest lie I've heard in decades. Millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades? Come on. Do you really expect anyone to believe that?

If you can substantiate that the US has caused millions of civilian deaths in the last several decades, then please do so. If possible, list them by year and country and provide some kind of support for those ridiculous claims.



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09 Dec 2012, 12:30 am

IdahoRose wrote:
^^^ That's just what I was about to say. Look at the huge outcries that happened when the Kony 2012 video hit the net. If more Americans were made aware of unethical things that our government was doing, we would certainly do more to put a stop to it. The problem, though, is that most of us are too wrapped up in our own lives to look at the bigger picture, and it certainly doesn't help that our government hides things from us anyway (like the Watergate Scandal, the JFK assassination conspiracies, etc.)


Precisely what was our government's involvement in the Kony situation?

Just how is the US government responsible for the actions and misdeeds of every tyrant in the world?

I take it you aren't old enough to remember Watergate. As for the JFK assassination goes, just what crazy conspiracies are you talking about? There are so many of them and they just don't make much sense at all and have no evidence to back them up. Please enlighten us with your imaginative wisdom.



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09 Dec 2012, 12:54 am

eric76 wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
^^^ That's just what I was about to say. Look at the huge outcries that happened when the Kony 2012 video hit the net. If more Americans were made aware of unethical things that our government was doing, we would certainly do more to put a stop to it. The problem, though, is that most of us are too wrapped up in our own lives to look at the bigger picture, and it certainly doesn't help that our government hides things from us anyway (like the Watergate Scandal, the JFK assassination conspiracies, etc.)


Precisely what was our government's involvement in the Kony situation?


Well, I did a little searching and found the the answer for this.

What did the US government have to do with Kony? Well, the US government officially designated his LRA (The Lord's Resistance Army) as a terrorist group on December 6, 2001. I guess that designating his LRA as a terrorist group, which naturally designated him as a terrorist, is in your mind unethical.

Please enlighten us about how designating him and his group as terrorists was unethical.