Pat Condell: "Patronising the Palestinians"

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Tequila
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03 Jan 2013, 1:24 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCIckbZKUs[/youtube]

Pat Condell wrote:
Well, a Happy New Year to everyone. I hope we all get what we want this year.

For my part, I'd like to see a change in our racist attitude in the West towards the situation in the Middle East, if that wouldn't be too much trouble, because right now we patronise the Palestinians by holding them to a lower standard of behaviour - as we do with all Arabs - because we're racists. We would never admit this, of course. We wouldn't want our racism to be perceived as racist, because then we'd have to own up to it, and that might short circuit our poor deluded hypocritical racist brains.

Because we're racists, we choose to ignore the fact that they deliberately target women and children while hiding behind their own women and children, which is a war crime, and they do it all the time, yet we know there isn't a hope in hell that any of them will ever be tried in the Hague because we've given them a free pass on indiscriminate barbarism. We don't believe they're capable of civilised behaviour because we're racists.

Being racists, we choose to ignore the thousands of Iranian rockets that come out of Gaza every month until Israel finally retaliates to protect its people, and only then do we start huffing and puffing and calling in ambassadors. Israelis get no credit at all for carefully avoiding civilian casualties, even though it isn't in dispute that that's what they do. We just ignore it, when, if the Palestinians behaved like that, we would trumpet their virtues from the rooftops and shower them with Nobel Prizes.

But they don't behave like that because we don't expect them to, and they know that. They know they can blow up Israeli civilians all day long and the free world's racist double standards will never hold them to account. On the contrary, we'll actively encourage their delinquent culture to become even more delinquent by consistently indulging and rewarding its delinquent behaviour with political support and billions of dollars, and then we'll wring our hands and wonder why nothing changes.

The Palestinians are victims, yes, but of their own insane and bloodthirsty leadership, and of a religion that has such an iron grip on its population that a mother will actually celebrate the death of her child in its cause, and dissent from it can literally cost you your life. Yet we pretend that this religion's influence is absolutely zero, and that this is actually a political situation - we maintain the ludicrous fiction that the Arabs are fighting for justice and civil rights, when we can see the kind of justice and civil rights that have been delivered to the people of Gaza under the religious jackboot of Hamas. We choose to ignore the fact that Arabs in Israel have more rights than they do in any Arab country, and that there are Arab Israelis in government and in the army, because these facts are inconvenient to our liberal racist prejudice, and they shatter the carefully nurtured propaganda myth of the apartheid state.

Being racists, we choose to ignore the history of the region and the fact that every time the Arabs feel strong enough they attack Israel unprovoked with the intention of committing religious genocide, and they make no secret of it. We know the refugee situation only exists because the last time they did this they told Arabs living in the West Bank to move out and promised them they could return when all the Jews had been killed. They're still waiting, and the agenda hasn't changed. And the agenda is not territory or justice, as we so dishonestly like to pretend. The agenda is religious blood vengeance, fulfilling Islamic scripture and wiping out the Jews - all of them. Islamic Jew-hatred as mandated by the Koran (which was around long before the state of Israel), as drummed into the children, and as broadcast every day in the Arab media, is the root cause of this problem, and for us in the West to pretend otherwise is as irresponsible as treating a bullet wound without removing the slug. We're just messing around with the symptoms and making things worse.

Nothing is going to change in the Middle East until we pay the Arabs the compliment of holding them to the same standard as everyone else, and that means cutting off the money supply and telling them bluntly that it's time to drop this infantile Bronze Age blood vengeance crap and move into the 21st century, because we are all waiting for them. If we don't do this, if we carry on indulging their primitive caveman hatred by treating this as a political problem and not a religious one, then we are effectively underwriting permanent war in the Middle East, because, whether we like it or not, Israel is, certainly now, the front line between Islam and civilisation, and we should know by now that there is no compromise with Islam. You either win or you lose, and if you lose, you lose everything, especially if you're Jewish. And the Palestinian leadership have made it crystal clear that as long as there is any level of Jewish autonomy in the Middle East, nothing that Israel concedes will ever be enough to satisfy them. They don't want peace at any price. They want to drive the Jews, all of them, into the sea, and they never stop telling us that. We have no excuse for pretending not to hear. It's written right into the Hamas Charter, it runs through every speech they make, and, according to the leader of Hezbollah, quote: "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth." Unquote. How many times do they have to say it before we finally snap out of our patronising liberal racist stupor and start listening?

Nice shirt, Pat. And spot on, as usual.



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03 Jan 2013, 1:49 pm

So a bunch of foreigners from another continent show up to set up an "outpost of the West" on their land and they're supposed to just accept it? That's what is being asked of Palestinians. This was an act of war done against them, and they were targeted by that war, and they remain targeted by that war. Palestine was 5% Jewish in 1920. Never forget that. Moreover, almost none of those were Ashkanazis from Europe. The Jewish population of Palestine at the time in fact opposed Zionism, all except for the recent arrivals at that time. They too saw these invaders for what they were and had more in common with their Christian and Muslim neighbours.



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03 Jan 2013, 2:11 pm

xenon13 wrote:
So a bunch of foreigners from another continent show up to set up an "outpost of the West" on their land and they're supposed to just accept it? That's what is being asked of Palestinians. This was an act of war done against them, and they were targeted by that war, and they remain targeted by that war. Palestine was 5% Jewish in 1920. Never forget that. Moreover, almost none of those were Ashkanazis from Europe. The Jewish population of Palestine at the time in fact opposed Zionism, all except for the recent arrivals at that time. They too saw these invaders for what they were and had more in common with their Christian and Muslim neighbours.

This isn't 1920.



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03 Jan 2013, 2:18 pm

xenon13 wrote:
So a bunch of foreigners from another continent show up to set up an "outpost of the West" on their land


Er... where did they ever say they were going to do that? They were there to form the Jewish national home, from which the Jewish population had been expelled from for 2,000 years or more - i.e. millennia before Islam even existed. (Islam only came into being in the 7th century.)

xenon13 wrote:
and they're supposed to just accept it?


They're not foreigners; it's their homeland too.

You might also want to ask yourself why the "Palestinians" didn't say a word against the occupation of 'their' land by Jordan and Egypt for 19 years between 1948-1967. I'll let you work it out.

xenon13 wrote:
That's what is being asked of Palestinians.


No, what is being asked of Palestinians is that they give up the violence, stop trying to wipe out the Jews (not Israelis, Jews - there is no mention in the Quran of Israel or Palestine) and live in peace with their neighbours. If Israel disappeared from the face of the Earth tomorrow, uncivilised and brutal Muslim immigrants in Europe would still be tormenting, abusing and being violent towards Jews, because many Muslims hate Jews for being Jews.

xenon13 wrote:
This was an act of war done against them


You do know that Palestine has never been an independent country, don't you? The British Mandate for Palestine gave separate areas for both Jews and Arabs to get along in peace. The Jews (after quite a bit of quibbling) more or less accepted it; the Arabs didn't accept anything. The terrorist Palestinian leadership, backed by various Arab countries, went to war with Israel three times and lost. It's not to do with land, or democracy, or human rights, or anything else. I'd love there to be a Palestinian state.

xenon13 wrote:
and they were targeted by that war


There are winners and losers in all wars. It's inevitable, and Israel was, almost from the very beginning, surprisingly concilliatory towards the losers, offering them much of what they asked for as early as a year after the War of Independence.

The formation of Israel is an awful lot less bloody than many other conflicts around the world.

xenon13 wrote:
and they remain targeted by that war.


Most of the blame for that can be laid at the door of the various Arab governments and the UNRWA who won't allow Palestinians to integrate into the countries they fled to. Palestinians today are actually treated far, far worse in places like Jordan, where they actually form a large majority, than in Israel and the Disputed Territories themselves.

Israel has assimilated its refugees from the various Arab countries after they left, were forced out, or fled after the formation of Israel. Bear in mind that these people weren't Israelis, but they were kicked out of Arab countries for being Jews.

xenon13 wrote:
Moreover, almost none of those were Ashkanazis from Europe.


A lot of the immigrants were from all over - Jews from Arab countries and people fleeing persecution from elsewhere. World War II had little to do with the foundation of Israel, yet I can perfectly understand Jews wanting to get out of Europe considering how little we did to help them. Having said that, it was very much out of the frying pan and into the fire.

xenon13 wrote:
The Jewish population of Palestine at the time in fact opposed Zionism, all except for the recent arrivals at that time. They too saw these invaders for what they were and had more in common with their Christian and Muslim neighbours.


Oh, there was a Zionist movement before the start of the 20th century, believe me. And I get the impression that Jews in Palestine were split.

The Palestinian Congress opposed Zionism from as early as 1920, accepting only "those Jews among us who have been Arabicized" (can we read dhimmified?). They opposed, often violently, Jews fleeing from persecution by the Nazis.



Last edited by Tequila on 03 Jan 2013, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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03 Jan 2013, 2:19 pm

GGPViper wrote:
This isn't 1920.


Precisely. Times have changed, and at the moment the Palestinian terrorists are bent on religious genocide.



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03 Jan 2013, 3:45 pm

Tarring all Palestinians with the offenses of Hamas is equally wrong.

Had he restricted himself to, "Patronising Hamas," then I would have been content to agree with much of what he says.

But when he talks about Palestinians being victims of their insane and bloodthirsty leadership, he demonstrates that his opinion arises from ignorance, or wilful blindness. He ought properly to know that Palestinians don't have a singular leadership--they are beset by fractured leadership and a divided territory that is under control of two different factions that are as intent on victory over each other as they are intent on prevailing over Israel.

It is possible to support Israel and to support the emergence of a negotiated peace with a sustainable Palestine capable of self-government. But instead, he acts as if Hamas were the only Palestinians, and serves to hinder, rather than help the cause of peace.


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03 Jan 2013, 4:02 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Tarring all Palestinians with the offenses of Hamas is equally wrong.


I'd actually agree with you, but most Palestinians themselves don't recognise that Israel should be allowed to exist. It's not like here in the UK where, going by opinion polls, you can honestly say that you shouldn't tar all British Muslims with supporting or sympathising with terrorism (because they don't, and not by a long way), but in Judea and Samaria and Gaza it actually is the majority opinion that Israel should eventually disappear amongst Palestinians. They're happily tarring themselves with that brush, not the Israelis, Pat Condell, or anyone else.

As far as they go, Hamas are more mainstream to Palestinians than a genuine two-state solution. And, if you look at PA TV, they still fairly regularly celebrate terrorists and terrorism on there, too. If you've been keeping a look out at Israeli news, you'll also recognise that Hamas are attempting to take over Judea and Samaria also, so there'll be lots more, er, "freedom" there for the Palestinians too.

Whilst a Palestinian state would be lovely in an ideal world (aside from the fact that it's a bit like taking a bit of the north-east of Scotland and a few islands of the Western Isles and calling it "Scotland"), the Palestinians themselves are the biggest impediment to such a state.

Palestinians have never once recognised Israel. Not in 1948, not in 1967, never.



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03 Jan 2013, 4:10 pm

Tequila wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Tarring all Palestinians with the offenses of Hamas is equally wrong.


I'd actually agree with you, but most Palestinians themselves don't recognise the right of Israel to exist..


Lets be fair, Israel hasn't done an awfully good job at selling them the Israel 'project'. It wasnt as if the jewish settlers approached the Palestinians diplomatically with pie charts and graphs saying, hey we want to bulldoze your homes, curtail your access to utilities and arable land and set up our own country here, are you in?

Understatement of the decade but i can't be arsed with this pandora's box anymore.


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Tequila
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03 Jan 2013, 4:18 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Lets be fair, Israel hasn't done an awfully good job at selling them the Israel 'project'. It wasnt as if the jewish settlers approached the Palestinians diplomatically with pie charts and graphs saying, hey we want to bulldoze your homes, curtail your access to utilities and arable land and set up our own country here, are you in?


They could have promised them anything and the Palestinians - that's the Muslim Arabs - would still have said 'no'. They even said "no" to it in 1920, decades before the State of Israel even came into existence.

The Jews could have asked for a state the size of a postage stamp, and the Arabs would still have destroyed it (or tried to destroy it). They do not like the idea of anyone else taking land that was once Muslim land. To them, once Muslim land, always Muslim land, regardless of any other factors involved.



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03 Jan 2013, 4:25 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Understatement of the decade but i can't be arsed with this pandora's box anymore.


It's all a little bit too much like Northern Ireland, isn't it. And most people there are sick of talking about politics there (apart from the obsessives and diehards). I don't blame them.



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03 Jan 2013, 4:50 pm

Tequila wrote:
They were there to form the Jewish national home, from which the Jewish population had been expelled from for 2,000 years or more.


Oh come on. If every ethnic group was allowed to pull stuff like that, it would be total chaos. I'm sympathetic to the idea that Jews needed a place to escape from European antisemitism, but there's no reason it had to be in the exact same place it used to be.



Declension
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03 Jan 2013, 5:02 pm

Actually, I just thought of something funny.

Suppose the Jews are allowed to reclaim their land after 2000 years, by taking it from people who weren't the ones who drove them out.

Then surely the Palestinians are allowed to reclaim their land after 50 years (i.e. right now), by taking it from the people who drove them out.

I mean, who has the stronger claim here?



Tequila
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03 Jan 2013, 7:31 pm

Again, you're not looking at the facts and the actual history of the region.

This is how I understand it - ruveyn can tell me whether I'm right or not.

The area known as Mandatory Palestine was of course a British protectorate before 1948. There has never been an independent country called Palestine. This Palestinian nationhood is a recent invention, whereas Jews have had a long-held ambition to return to the land of Zion and Jerusalem. That's not to say that Arabs have no claim on the land - not at all - but the fact is that pre-1967, that's what they called themselves: Arabs.

Jews and Arabs lived in the Mandate, but there was increasing momentum in the Zionist movement from 1900 onwards. During the 1930s and 1940s, there were increasing nationalist ambitions on both sides - both from Jews wanting to flee the Nazis and Europe and them protesting against the limits on immigration imposed by the British, and Arabs being against any Jewish immigration to the area. From what I can tell, it was a very contentious period on both sides. Anyway, the Jews agreed that Transjordan, which was under the Mandate, was of no interest to them (which was about 80% of the land of the Mandate) and that became independent separately. Jordan, as we all know, has a large majority of its population who are Palestinians and who aren't much different culturally from Arabs in Judea/Samaria and Gaza. So, having had that removed from the equation meant that there was a lot less land to play with, and it made things a lot more difficult to accommodate the two peoples. Anyway, the Jordanians occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967 and not a peep was heard out of the "poor Palestinians" about the occupation of Palestine, even though they had less rights under the Jordanians than they now have under Israel. My point is that they're liars when they go on about Palestine.

Anyway, back to Mandatory Palestine: The Arabs wanted all of Palestine to be given to the Arabs after the British left and weren't going to negotiate with anyone. The Jews wanted a Jewish state somewhere in the Land of Israel, which they consider their national home due to what it says in the Jewish Bible and the 2,000 year continuous settlement in the Land of Israel by Jews but the Jews were happy to share with the Arabs and made repeated affirmations to that effect and agreed, more or less, with what the British were offering.

The term "Palestinian" is a millennia-old region that was part of the Roman Empire, and "Palestinian" as a commonly-held, widespread identity in the region didn't even exist until after the Six-Day War, when Arab countries got the crap kicked out of them for the second time for gearing up to attacking Israel. If you remember, a whole group of Arab countries ganged up on Israel in 1948 after Israel declared independence and were defeated.

So, really, it all depends on who you believe. I'd love to see a Palestinian state, but I've seen no real desire for it amongst the mainstream Palestinian leadership. I've seen and heard decent Israelis and perfectly good people in West Bank and Gaza definitely support it and for the right reasons (and not for Jew-hatred), but the leadership in the DTs (both of them) are a completely different kettle of fish. They don't want peace. They want to keep the pot boiling for all the usual reasons you can think of.



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03 Jan 2013, 7:42 pm

Declension wrote:
Actually, I just thought of something funny.

Suppose the Jews are allowed to reclaim their land after 2000 years, by taking it from people who weren't the ones who drove them out.

Then surely the Palestinians are allowed to reclaim their land after 50 years (i.e. right now), by taking it from the people who drove them out.

I mean, who has the stronger claim here?

It amazes me that we continue to debate who has claim to different land masses when it's really about firepower. Violence is how territory is won and lost, not claims. It's almost as bad as people thinking that we're somehow more civilized than we were a hundred years ago.

Let's face it... life sucks for whoever is losing. Righteousness means almost nothing.



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03 Jan 2013, 7:56 pm

adb wrote:
Let's face it... life sucks for whoever is losing. Righteousness means almost nothing.


But what if the people on the losing side have absolutely no right whatsoever to the territory they claim? I'm not on about the situation in the Middle East here.



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03 Jan 2013, 10:03 pm

I hold them to a lower standard because they're backed into a corner.