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cubedemon6073
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20 Feb 2013, 6:14 pm

It said that God exists outside of space and time.

What is space and what is time?

How would one know if he is outside of space and time?



ruveyn
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20 Feb 2013, 6:20 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
It said that God exists outside of space and time.

What is space and what is time?

How would one know if he is outside of space and time?


one would not. The proposition is completely untestable. That means it is useless to work with it.

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cubedemon6073
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20 Feb 2013, 6:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
It said that God exists outside of space and time.

What is space and what is time?

How would one know if he is outside of space and time?


one would not. The proposition is completely untestable. That means it is useless to work with it.

ruveyn


Why would it be untestable? Is there criteria for something to be testable and if so what is it?



ruveyn
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20 Feb 2013, 6:27 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
It said that God exists outside of space and time.

What is space and what is time?

How would one know if he is outside of space and time?


one would not. The proposition is completely untestable. That means it is useless to work with it.

ruveyn


Why would it be untestable? Is there criteria for something to be testable and if so what is it?


Suggest a way of testing the humans can do. Everything we are and perceived are in the space time manifold. We have no way to get out of it, assuming there is an out of it.

It is not within human power to test the proposition, so it is best left alone.

In addition there is not a shred of evidence that the kind of God that exists in the Abrahamic religions even exists. Chasing after proof is a blood waste of time and consiering that if we are lucky we might live between 25,000 and 35,000 days, time is not something we should waste.

ruveyn



cubedemon6073
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20 Feb 2013, 6:36 pm

Quote:
Suggest a way of testing the humans can do. Everything we are and perceived are in the space time manifold. We have no way to get out of it, assuming there is an out of it.


Well, to do this a definition would have to be constructed for the terms "space" and "time" that is a set of criteria. This is how it would have to start.

In order to be in space one would have to meet any criteria {a,b,c,d}
In order to be in time one would have to meet any criteria {e,f,g,h}


If a section of existence does not meet any of the criteria for space then it is not space. If a section of existence does not meet any of the criteria of time then it is not in time.

Testing would be done to see if the section met any of the criteria for space or time and if not then it is not in space or time. The test would pass if all criteria was negated. Maybe a proof by negation could be set up.



The_Walrus
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20 Feb 2013, 7:03 pm

In order for a location to be in space, it must be possible for a particle to travel to it.

In order to exist within time, something must move from one state to another, even if that is just an electron changing its direction of spin.

Empiricism only works on spatial and temporal things.



MCalavera
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20 Feb 2013, 10:21 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
It said that God exists outside of space and time.

What is space and what is time?

How would one know if he is outside of space and time?


The thing is you can propose any entity (not just an unembodied mind like God) to exist outside of space and time, but it means nothing at the end of the day if we don't know what exactly it's like to be outside of space and time.



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20 Feb 2013, 10:34 pm

I believe that God is space and time. In order for a God to exist separate from the universe, there would have to be multiple ultimate standards of existence. It makes sense to me that there should be only one ultimate standard of existence. I believe that God, the universe, life, and existence are all one and the same. I don't believe in a God that is a being, but I believe in a God that is associated with supernatural phenomena that doesn't fit within the realm of an atheistic universe. I believe that God is alive, but not in the way that living organisms are. God is the essence of life itself. God forms the characteristics of living organisms and the universe without designing them, similarly to the way the subconscious mind forms dreams during sleep. God is not a he, a she, or an it. To use any of these pronouns would be to oversimplify the concept of God.

I cannot prove that my ignostic perception of God is correct. But it cannot be proven that conventional perceptions of God are correct or that God doesn't exist either. It is purely a philosophical question. There are no tests that can be done to prove whether or not there is a God, or what God's characteristics are, if there is a God.



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20 Feb 2013, 11:25 pm

I haven't come across Ignosticism before. I've been leaning toward the idea of Pantheism. It seems kind of similar.



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21 Feb 2013, 3:04 am

In science, things/properties must be assumed nonexistent unless there is evidence to support their existence. Space is that which can separate two points and create distance between them. Time is what can separate two moments and create distance between them. There is simply no logical way for these properties of the universe to be a product of consciousness (there must be a physical manifestation to produce consciousness, ie, the connections and patterns of neurons, the transistors in a computer, etc). It is just an anomaly in reality as far as mankind knows.

By the way, I like your avatar: a shadow of a tesseract.



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21 Feb 2013, 7:02 am

Talking of tesseracts - what does it mean to say that a tesseract is outside 3 dimensions?


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cubedemon6073
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21 Feb 2013, 7:39 am

Magneto wrote:
Talking of tesseracts - what does it mean to say that a tesseract is outside 3 dimensions?


It means the tesseract has an extra 4th dimension to it. Our dimensions consists of length, width, height. The fourth dimension consists of these 3 things plus what I will call y.



ruveyn
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21 Feb 2013, 9:34 am

Magneto wrote:
Talking of tesseracts - what does it mean to say that a tesseract is outside 3 dimensions?


There is no physical tesseract. All we can construction is a projection of a tesseract onto three space. You might say a tesseract is shadow without substance.

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21 Feb 2013, 10:59 am

The plural of "speculation" is not "evidence", and belief proves nothing.

The OP begs the question, "Does God Exist?", and does not identify who or what "It" is in the first sentence.


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cubedemon6073
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21 Feb 2013, 12:19 pm

Fnord wrote:
The plural of "speculation" is not "evidence", and belief proves nothing.

The OP begs the question, "Does God Exist?", and does not identify who or what "It" is in the first sentence.


How would it be possible to truthfully prove all? If we literally had to have proof of everything wouldn't we end up proving forever. Would we not have to have a starting point to prove from? Even math and science has to have axioms to start from am I correct?

axiom: a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true:
proposition: 1a statement or assertion that expresses a judgment or opinion: the proposition that all men are created equal

• Logic a statement that expresses a concept that can be true or false.
• Mathematics a formal statement of a theorem or problem, typically including the demonstration.

I chose to accept God in this case as existing without proof. I considered God to be axiom in this case to derive from.

Fnord, you have axioms to your beliefs as well and you choose to accept them without proof. Can you use logic and rationality to prove the core tenets of logic and rationality is true? You accept them as axioms. Those who do believe in God believe in their axioms as well.