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Is there anything to "Men's Rights" groups?

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ArrantPariah
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21 Feb 2013, 11:20 am

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/2 ... w-Misogyny

Quote:
....There has been a growing internet movement of "men's rights" activists, Pick up artists and others who call themselves "the Manosphere."

...The community that characterize this misogyny call themselves the Manosphere, an interlocking network of blogs for “men’s rights” activists (MRAs), pickup artists (PUA) and some online gamers. Unlike the mainstream conservative conceptions of women, the views espoused by the manosphere harkens back to what can only be described as a proto-fascist,...

...Recently it seems that the recession has been a major boon to their ideology. Because times are tough on both sexes, but especially hard on positions of employment typically held by men, it has been fuel for gender resentment.

....It also seems the other factor growing this community, especially the pickup community, has been a lack of sex. As Sandy Hingston points out in an examination of twenty-something men, the situation is grim. The economy has made it so that “[y]oung men are now nearly twice as likely as young women to live with their parents; 59 percent of guys ages 18 to 24 and 19 percent of 25-to-34-year-olds live at home.” Indeed according to the Centers for Disease Control, even virginity has increased....


The article is obvious quite down on the Men's Rights Activists--lumping them together with Pickup Artists, and characterizing them as being motivated primarily by sexual frustration.

Feminists have been around since at least the Suffragette movement, and are quite well organized, with their national organizations, charters, political activism, fielding of speakers, whole university departments devoted to feminism, magazines, and everyone genuflecting to Gloria Steinem.

Is there anything similar on the men's side, or are they just a bunch of guys who type stuff on the internet?

Is there a recognized leader, corresponding to the feminists' Gloria Steinem? I hope it isn't Henry Makow.

Are they political at all?



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21 Feb 2013, 12:47 pm

My casual observation is that some groups are concerned with legitimate issues, such as men's reproductive rights and husband abuse, but there are plenty of others who are just enamored with "victimhood" and blaming women for their personal failures.

I think you're correct in that it's still pretty "new." It's going to take time for MRA groups to sort themselves out.

In the long run, I believe the ones who focus on men's issues, and not on, "Boo-hoo. Women are oppressing us!" are going to have more of a lasting impact.


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21 Feb 2013, 1:00 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
My casual observation is that some groups are concerned with legitimate issues, such as men's reproductive rights and husband abuse, but there are plenty of others who are just enamored with "victimhood" and blaming women for their personal failures.

I think you're correct in that it's still pretty "new." It's going to take time for MRA groups to sort themselves out.

In the long run, I believe the ones who focus on men's issues, and not on, "Boo-hoo. Women are oppressing us!" are going to have more of a lasting impact.


I agree with this. I tried to get involved in the movement a few years back but was turned off by the traditionalism and sexism. I think men's rights should be the complement to feminism, not anti-feminist.

So, for example, feminism is concerned with women being able to have equal opportunities to build a career, so I think that men's rights should be concerned with making it socially acceptable for men to be caretakers of children and making parenting/custody rights equal. These things are not incompatible with feminism.

I also disagree with the gender-role driven social dynamic of dating. But that will be harder to change.



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21 Feb 2013, 3:00 pm

Yeah, I'd be cool with them if they were all about wanting to break out of traditional gender role pressure and to have more freedom and options in their lives without stigma, but from what I see on the internet, it really does look like a bunch of guys who blame feminism for their relationship (or lack of relationship) issues. I don't see them actually wanting to deal with any women as equal individuals, but glorify the past and women in poor nations because they want to be able to get a submissive girlfriend more easily. They also do this weird thing where they think of women as a singular hivemind a lot. It bothers.



ArrantPariah
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21 Feb 2013, 4:10 pm

I suppose that we should acknowledge that male sexuality is very different from female sexuality, and that the two sexualities are not entirely complementary. Otherwise, there would be a lot fewer men complaining about their lack of sex, and a lot fewer women complaining about too much sexual interest from men.

Feminists have been more successful in asserting their preferred mode of sexuality, and have been pushing slogans like "Sex in not an Entitlement!" and "Buy yourself a fleshlight and leave women alone!"

Perhaps the solution is for more men to use fleshlights. Or, for prostitution to become legal and affordable. Or, for more men to seek female companionship abroad. Or, for more men to take up homosexuality. All of these should help to reduce pressure on the ladies, while helping to address male sex drive.



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21 Feb 2013, 4:16 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
Yeah, I'd be cool with them if they were all about wanting to break out of traditional gender role pressure and to have more freedom and options in their lives without stigma, but from what I see on the internet, it really does look like a bunch of guys who blame feminism for their relationship (or lack of relationship) issues. I don't see them actually wanting to deal with any women as equal individuals, but glorify the past and women in poor nations because they want to be able to get a submissive girlfriend more easily. They also do this weird thing where they think of women as a singular hivemind a lot. It bothers.


What if traditional gender role pressure is biologically ingrained? Think about how people lived not too long ago. Think about how long human beings have been on this planet. It is not something that will go away as soon as people start demanding rights.

Men's groups should work to amend divorce and custody laws. Fathers are treated poorly by the legal system. It should be harder to get divorced, and the wife should not be able to claim half of her husband's assets unless she bore him children. Equitable distribution and no-fault divorce have turned marriage into a sham.



ArrantPariah
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21 Feb 2013, 4:33 pm

According to the original article

Quote:
MRAs often favor policies as regressive as re-legalizing martial rape, preventing women from going into higher education, and with some going so far as to want to abolish female suffrage entirely (yes really) lest it interfere with women’s societal priorities as baby makers.


I doubt that many "MRAs" go that far, and those that do shouldn't be taken seriously.

"Re-legalize martial rape?" Let marauding soldiers rape whom they will? I don't think that anyone could seriously be advocating this. We'd much rather our soldiers be orderly and disciplined--not raping willy-nilly like they did in Vietnam.



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21 Feb 2013, 4:35 pm

Telekon wrote:
Men's groups should work to amend divorce and custody laws. Fathers are treated poorly by the legal system. It should be harder to get divorced, and the wife should not be able to claim half of her husband's assets unless she bore him children. Equitable distribution and no-fault divorce have turned marriage into a sham.


Prenuptial agreements are extremely important these days.



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21 Feb 2013, 4:53 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
I suppose that we should acknowledge that male sexuality is very different from female sexuality, and that the two sexualities are not entirely complementary. Otherwise, there would be a lot fewer men complaining about their lack of sex, and a lot fewer women complaining about too much sexual interest from men.


Very true.

Quote:
Feminists have been more successful in asserting their preferred mode of sexuality, and have been pushing slogans like "Sex in not an Entitlement!" and "Buy yourself a fleshlight and leave women alone!"


The "male mode" of sexuality is a bit more difficult to push.

Quote:
Perhaps the solution is for more men to use fleshlights. Or, for prostitution to become legal and affordable. Or, for more men to seek female companionship abroad. Or, for more men to take up homosexuality. All of these should help to reduce pressure on the ladies, while helping to address male sex drive.


I'd be cool with all of the above.


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21 Feb 2013, 6:20 pm

Men's right as little to with these pickup groups.

Men's right like women right are a bout specific injustices, or preconceptions surround men,

For instance access right to your children.



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21 Feb 2013, 8:25 pm

Telekon wrote:
What if traditional gender role pressure is biologically ingrained? Think about how people lived not too long ago. Think about how long human beings have been on this planet. It is not something that will go away as soon as people start demanding rights.


Why call women sluts and dykes or call men fags and p*****s if they don't conform to the expected role? Why codify it into any law? What's the point of that? If it's natural for most people to act a certain way, there's plenty of room on the planet for them to go do their traditional arrangement with a guy working and a woman having babies and let those who don't fit into that to do their own thing as well. For a lot of us, the traditional thing doesn't come natural. It's forced or peer pressured. A lot of these guys who claim to be oppressed by feminism just want to turn it around and be doing all the oppressing themselves. F that. For the ones who want to just be free of all the gender crap, that's great and I'd support that!



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21 Feb 2013, 8:27 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Perhaps the solution is for more men to use fleshlights. Or, for prostitution to become legal and affordable. Or, for more men to seek female companionship abroad. Or, for more men to take up homosexuality. All of these should help to reduce pressure on the ladies, while helping to address male sex drive.


This... it does not make sense. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me.



ArrantPariah
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21 Feb 2013, 8:53 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Perhaps the solution is for more men to use fleshlights. Or, for prostitution to become legal and affordable. Or, for more men to seek female companionship abroad. Or, for more men to take up homosexuality. All of these should help to reduce pressure on the ladies, while helping to address male sex drive.


This... it does not make sense. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me.


A lot of women in America are annoyed by the male sex drive. Some aspects of Feminism seem to have the objective of blunting male sexuality. Feminists object to the "sexual objectification" of women. If the male sex drive can be directed towards other outlets, then there would be less pressure and less annoyance to American women.



ArrantPariah
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21 Feb 2013, 9:05 pm

In the background of her youtube videos, GirlWritesWhat has a sign for the National Coalition for Men

http://ncfm.org/

Just giving the website a cursory overview, it seems to be a serious organization--not just a bunch of idiotic woman-haters.



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21 Feb 2013, 9:38 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
A lot of women in America are annoyed by the male sex drive. Some aspects of Feminism seem to have the objective of blunting male sexuality. Feminists object to the "sexual objectification" of women. If the male sex drive can be directed towards other outlets, then there would be less pressure and less annoyance to American women.


You were theorizing that male sexuality is biologically different than female sexuality in that men want sex more. If this were true, then it wouldn't differ based on country. American women's sex drive and Thailand women's sex drive would be at the same low level. Therefore, if these women in Thailand are a lot more willing to have sex with you, it isn't because they like you or are enjoying it, but because there is some pressure on them to do so. You were saying you'll reduce sexual pressure on women by putting pressure on... other women! That's what didn't make sense to me.

Also, please stop referring to what feminists believe as if we all agree with each other! We really don't! Some feminists are touchy about "objectification" and some aren't, and some are very pro-sexuality to the point where they think being a porn star is empowering. We really don't all agree. Neither do women. Some of us don't like sex and some of us love it and get called sluts for it. Some of us would like to see you try to go gay because we think it would be hot and want to watch. Really, we aren't all the same and can't stress this enough! :P



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21 Feb 2013, 9:55 pm

This is the same gripe I have with feminism. Is such an exclusive movement really needed?

How about a movement that aims to resolve needs and wants for both genders and beyond? For example, fix the male sexual frustration issue and allow for opportunities for women to be respected more and more intellectually.

Why not fight together instead of against each other?