Initiating direct, transparent communication

Post Reply New Topic

For those who have not followed my first real dating experience from previous threads, I mentioned wanting to know how relationships typically progress. The feedback I got in that thread was very useful, and I have continued to think about that feedback for a week.

What I have come up with is that trying to conform to the NT subtlety/nonverbal hint dynamic is taking a toll on me. I feel much more fatigued from information overload, and my confusion has led to anxiety. I need to decide whether or not to just keep doing what I am doing in order to hone that necessary skill (doing the "NT social dance"), even if it means risking plateauing this potential relationship, or to just jump into assertive mode and open up direct, transparent communication to get all intentions on the table. Honestly, I am 75% convinced of the latter, but that 25% of doubt continues to linger, which is why I'm interested in other perspectives for me to consider.

For those new to the show, I have been "dating" a very nice girl for a few weeks now. In these "dates", we talked quite a lot over food, and also studied for many hours (but ended up talking most of the time ). I think I have given enough information to her so that she knows what kind of person I am (bar one factor, which I will address soon, although you can probably guess it), and she has given a LOT of information to me about who she is, what her interests are, where she comes from, etc. From what I know of her, I am definitely attracted, and the fact she keeps expressing interest in continuing to meet seems to indicate to me that she is still interested in me to some capacity.

The typical NT man in this situation would probably collect the signals, know her and his own intentions, and make the judgment to cut ties, stay in friendship, or advance the relationship. I intend to add opening direct communication as an additional step before making that advance. For instance, I do not know very key pieces of information, and I suspect she likely does not know very key pieces of information about how I am viewing the interaction as well (Aspies can't read well, but also don't show well).

Do not treat these questions as exactly what I will say (how robotic that would sound!), but these are the pieces of information I need and how I generally see myself asking questions to get them, albeit executed in MUCH less wordy ways:

- We have been meeting up for a few weeks now. Do you see these meetings as "dates", or as merely hanging out? I have viewed these meetings as dates, but I am curious as to how you have seen them.

- I often struggle to recognize when or if you are communicating things to me through body language, and I typically have recognized them after the fact. If you have been trying to, how do you feel when it seems like I am not picking up on them?

Auxiliary Statement: If it has caused any displeasure, I am sorry. I have some difficulty in picking up on nonverbal signals from people, and I just want you to know that my lack of reciprocation in the moment is not due to my not being interested in you. (If she asks further, I would mention Asperger's Syndrome)

- How do you currently see our current companionship? Do you see potential for making it into something greater? I definitely see potential, and am open to taking the chance, but I only wish to proceed if you are also interested.

These are my questions for you:

For everyone, what do you think about the essence of the questions listed above?

For the women here (NT and Aspie), do you like honest, direct, transparent communication? Is it welcoming to see it given its rarity with a lot of NT guys, or does it cause discomfort?

For the guys here, have you tried using this approach when dating NT girls, and what results has it typically led to for you?


I see myself as an assertive person. If I want to reach a goal, I will do what it takes to get it done and then some. I recognize my Asperger's Syndrome as one of my weaknesses, but everyone has weaknesses and we should not be ashamed of them. What matters is what we do to overcome them. I recognize a feeling of insecurity surrounding my admittance to this weakness, given the cultural expectation of being seen as "confident" and the practical effects those expectations cause, but as far as I know she is completely unaware of this epistemic weakness, and revealing it in order to get things moving in order to learn away this weakness is a confident action to me. I am unaware of the risk of being direct, but I am aware of the risk of letting myself simmer in the doldrums, and that simmering cannot and will not continue.

I don't really feel qualified to answer this, but because nobody else does, I'll give it a try.

In what kind of places did these "dates" takes place?


Yes, that's definitely a problem. But you can infer some bits of information from the context.
Such as: does she "play in your league"? Does she seem to have many other dating options?

I hope this won't discourage you, but some people are just very friendly, and it's possibly to mistake that for flirting. (It has happened to me twice. Fortunately, in both cases, they talked about their boyfriends before I could embarrass myself.)


I don't think such openness is the usual way it works, but as the NT way isn't going to work, it's probably the best option.
It's a legitimate question, so I don't see why she should react badly. Maybe pause for a moment before you say the second part.


No, I wouldn't do that. Dating is a kind of advertising, so you shouldn't start by emphasizing your weaknesses.
If she doesn't like you right now, she won't start liking you when you explain yourself.


Thinking in patterns and labels is rather an Aspie tendency. Thus: no. The first question was better.


No, my experiences with NT girls have been what I depicted above: complete misunderstanding.

On-campus cafeteria booth, face to face. Not the most romantic of places, but poor college students without cars don't have many options, unfortunately. Studying was done in library private study rooms.



http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt223021.html
This thread describes her flirting behavior prior to my asking her out. I may be wrong, but I think her initial (seemingly enthusiastic) accepting and her persistence in maintaining regular meetings seems indicative of some sort of interest.

I don't know if she "plays in my league" or if she "has many other dating options". She seems rather introverted so my inclination is to say she possibly has other options but probably not significantly many. She has stated offhand liking quiet guys, and she keeps suggesting continuing to meet for these "dates" after each one finishes, so I'm pretty confident it's more than just being nice (I see platonic friendship desire at the very least, if not romantic interest). Also, she has talked a lot about her personal life, and has not mentioned having a boyfriend, so I doubt that is a problem here.

So, based on what I know, the context is pretty ambiguous, which is what makes this whole thing pretty difficult to merely infer from. It seems like it could go either way, but either waiting it out for more obvious signs in upcoming weeks or just getting it resolved verbally are my options for learning the real answer. What is typically the expiration time for these kinds of post-first date pre-relationship periods?



I also doubt it is the way it works with NTs, but I am quite irritated about how it is that way regardless of social blindness. Imagine how much more efficient it would be to be transparent in these early situations; there would be so many fewer abusive relationships, failed marriages, crimes of passion, etc., but I digress. My thought is that she will either answer the question, which I can evaluate, or she will reflect the question back to me, which I would answer with that second piece and get an answer out of her subsequent response.



Well, if she doesn't like me now, that probably wouldn't change whether I mention a weakness upfront or not. But if she does like me, and ceases to after learning of this "weakness", it probably would not end up being a long-lasting relationship anyway so I figure I might as well get it out early, no?



This is definitely a legitimate point. I could probably infer the answer to this question from the answer to the first question anyway so losing this one isn't a big loss.



I'm sorry to hear that. You shouldn't give up though. Like you said, we Aspies are great at thinking in patterns, and a lot of social interaction without instinct reduces down to mere pattern recognition. I know if my scenario now turns out to be merely a misunderstanding, I'll definitely be disappointed, but I will see it as more data for my ever-vigilant mind to remember in order to better understand these dynamics in the future.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything then. But it can.


Yes, very indicative. But, as you mentioned below, still ambiguous.


I think you shoudn't wait any longer.


Yes, that's the idea. But you should have plans for either answer.
If she says yes, you still don't know how she liked these "dates".
If she says no, listen carefully if she might be interested in a date or not. And you shouldn't respond "But I have" in this case.

So, this question is relatively harmless, but it doesn't answer everything.


True, but you shouldn't combine this information with the question whether she is interested in you.
The latter is an emotional question, and facts won't help her.


Well, I think it's because girls think I'm aromantic. So they do things that would otherwise qualify as "flirting", but they don't realize that because they don't think I understand it that way.
I hope this doesn't apply to you.

Oh, and please tell about any progres.

My main concern is if this is culturally regarded as "too early" or "moving too quickly". I have received contradictory information regarding this expectation; people outside my age group seem to universally regard three weeks as too early and see 2-4 months as ideal, but people my age seem to do things much more quickly. And since she comes from a different cultural background from mine, I imagine that also plays a role in expectation, though it also might play to my advantage if her assumption is that my cultural lens and not social blindness is what leads to my missing the cultural expectation. Given that I need to even think about this, I wonder if that in of itself is reason to hold on for a little while longer. What do you think?


If she didn't like the "dates", why would she keep doing them, and suggesting them? I suppose as an excuse to be around me, but that would be positive in a different way.



Definitely true. This question really only would be asked given a "yes" from the previous question, and not directly afterwards either.



I am actually not sure if I am perceived as aromantic. Given my lack of flirtatious body language (some of my verbal language could be construed as flirtatious, though), it may very well be possible. I don't think I have enough data to say for sure, though. I also hope that doesn't apply to me.



Will do!

Invite her to your dorm room to watch a movie or something. If there is potential for a romantic pairing it's not going to happen in a cafeteria or study room.

Too early for what? To use labels like "love" and "relationship" – maybe.
To clarify your intentions? No.


Oh, I didn't know she suggested them. You're right then.


I think the rule says that public places are preferred. So I'd suggest a movie theater.

You're probably right. I suppose the problem is I'm practically treating this like a game of Minesweeper so I'm second guessing every move.



Yeah, she keeps saying we should do it again after each "date," which is definitely assuring to me. Earlier I should have been more concrete than saying she "expressed interest in continuing."



I am inclined to agree an invitation to my dorm for a movie is too suggestive too early, but again I don't know what the rules are in college settings. Anyone else have perspectives here?

I don't think you've actually dated yet. Studying and cafeteria lunches don't count.
Maybe step it up a notch. I'm assuming you view her as a possible sexual partner; if so, you need to let her know this. It's hard to suggest a specific act, but I would try touching her somehow to see how she reacts. Maybe put your hand on hers while you're sitting close. If she reacts well, ask her on a date - dinner and a movie, maybe. Try to find out if there is something she is interested in seeing/doing.

So date status is contingent on location rather than content? We are college students without cars which is why dinner and a movie is difficult to handle logistically. I have never been on a real "dinner and movie"-style date, but from pop culture absorption it seems that the content of our cafeteria dinner conversations parallel that of dates (in a relatively structured manner, revealing our interests, our familial backgrounds, our past experiences, our academic, professional and life aspirations, and our pet peeves to each other). Maybe it's due to my inexperience, but these dinner meetings seem a lot more structured than when I merely hang out with friends. But...I might be reading too much into the context.


Is it wise to invade someone's personal space without already giving the intention ahead of time? I'd think that could be taken the wrong way, especially given my prototypical Aspie tendency to find unprovoked, non-intimate touching to be incredibly awkward and thus handle its execution haphazardly.

Yes . . . there has to be a more formal setting. This distinguishes the context of the meeting.


The date signifies the intention.

This carries the risk of rejection though, which could end the relationship you currently enjoy.

I'm not saying to ask her on a date to your dorm room. I'm saying ask her if she wants to "hangout" and watch a movie, listen to music or watch stupid internet videos on your computer........Things college kids do. If there is really anything between you two it should be much more obvious in an intimate setting. Just don't go in expecting it to be anything more.

Couldn't difference in tone of normal setting rather than difference in setting altogether also distinguish context, particularly in college where the center of focus rarely if ever stretches out of campus?



I really would like to do this; it isn't a logistical nightmare, and it should be enjoyable to hang out and watch some movies regardless of context. I just don't want to break those sacred social "rules" that NT's seem so obsessive about.

How would the tone be changed?


I guess you have to decide what your intentions are. If you are content with the state of the relationship now, maybe you should just keep doing what you're doing.