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auntblabby
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03 Jun 2013, 6:25 pm

what is needed here in the land of the hardly free/home of the wageslave, is "capitalism with a human face." who shall be our Alexander Dubcek?



Cornflake
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03 Jun 2013, 6:26 pm

[Moved from Autism Politics, Activism, and Media Representation to PPR]


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Giraffe: a ruminant with a view.


ruveyn
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03 Jun 2013, 6:37 pm

SaveTigers wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Have you read about the history of communism as it was actually practiced?

I second this question! Yes, by all means, please read everything you can get your hands on about the history of communism and how it worked out. Let us know how you feel about it then.
To paraphrase Churchill: "Capitalism is the worst form of government, except for all the others". In other words, it's the best we've managed to come up with, as imperfect as it may be.

Capitalism is not a governmental form. It is a kind of economic system. You could have capitalism in a Republic or a Monarchy. As long as property rights are respected it will work out.

ruveyn



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03 Jun 2013, 6:47 pm

SaveTigers wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Have you read about the history of communism as it was actually practiced?

I second this question! Yes, by all means, please read everything you can get your hands on about the history of communism and how it worked out. Let us know how you feel about it then.
To paraphrase Churchill: "Capitalism is the worst form of government, except for all the others". In other words, it's the best we've managed to come up with, as imperfect as it may be.


The following is the best work I know cataloging the horrors of communism:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Commun ... +communism



seaturtleisland
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03 Jun 2013, 6:51 pm

eric76 wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
I lean Libertarian in terms of how the Federal government operates, but I'm fairly open to socialism operated by state and municipal government. We have state and local police. We have local fire rescue, ambulances,and snow plow service. it makes sense that a medical safety net could be run by city or state government to.

I also look to Canada and find some appeal in the fact that their Health Care seems to be Provincial. I'm sure Ottawa has some pull by attaching strings to subsidies, but they don't run the whole thing.


A couple of years ago, a woman from Canada who lives in Mexico wrote about her and her husband going to Canada for a medical operation for her husband. The operation would be paid for by the government, but it would be at least 6 to 8 weeks before it could be performed. They returned to Mexico and he had the operation the same week in Mexico. While they had to pay all of their medical bills out of their pocket, those bills were less than what it would have cost them to hang around in Canada for the 6 to 8 weeks waiting for the operation.


In a way that's a success for Canada's system. The waiting times deter foreigners who don't pay Canadian taxes from coming to our country just to take advantage of our health care system. It doesn't cost Canadian citizens a cent to stay in Canada but foreigners have to rent a place or stay in a hotel for 6-8 weeks.

The long wait times are usually a bad thing but you've just provided an example of how they benefit our country.



auntblabby
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03 Jun 2013, 6:54 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
In a way that's a success for Canada's system. The waiting times deter foreigners who don't pay Canadian taxes from coming to our country just to take advantage of our health care system.

I would take the Canadian system [over the American non-system] in a heartbeat. the republicans will never let obamacare [or anything which actually extends coverage to the working poor] work.



SaveTigers
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03 Jun 2013, 7:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:
SaveTigers wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Have you read about the history of communism as it was actually practiced?

I second this question! Yes, by all means, please read everything you can get your hands on about the history of communism and how it worked out. Let us know how you feel about it then.
To paraphrase Churchill: "Capitalism is the worst form of government, except for all the others". In other words, it's the best we've managed to come up with, as imperfect as it may be.

Capitalism is not a governmental form. It is a kind of economic system. You could have capitalism in a Republic or a Monarchy. As long as property rights are respected it will work out.

ruveyn


Yes, you're right. Thanks for that correction. I was quoting off the top of my head, which is getting foggy in my old age! :lol: But I think the spirit of what I meant is clear (I hope, at least).
Amelia



Ann2011
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03 Jun 2013, 7:10 pm

The waiting is getting longer and longer in Canada, but they do use a triage approach, so if it's an emergency, it'll get dealt with. That's not to say that you won't have to wait months to get a cancerous tumor removed. The system is burdened.

I think the biggest problem the economy faces right now is lack of middle class jobs. It seems these days, either you're a highly skilled specialist or you work at McDonald's. Not literally . . . but there doesn't seem to be a middle ground where people can make a living doing something they're capable of.



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03 Jun 2013, 7:23 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
The waiting is getting longer and longer in Canada, but they do use a triage approach, so if it's an emergency, it'll get dealt with. That's not to say that you won't have to wait months to get a cancerous tumor removed. The system is burdened.

I think the biggest problem the economy faces right now is lack of middle class jobs. It seems these days, either you're a highly skilled specialist or you work at McDonald's. Not literally . . . but there doesn't seem to be a middle ground where people can make a living doing something they're capable of.


Ann makes some excellent observations. Regarding health care, the biggest problem with socialized medicine is that there is no charge to the end user. For example, I was in England some years back walking down the street when this young woman on a motor scooter spilled almost on top of us. She wasn't going fast, and her injuries appeared no worse than a bit of skin off her knee. Yet she had an ambulance called and was rushed off to the hospital. My guess is that if she would have had to pay for that trip out of her own pocket that it never would've happened. Multiply little incidents like this by thousands of times ever day, and suddenly health care becomes very expensive. When something is "free" we will use much more of it than if it costs us dearly.

Regarding jobs, at least in the US, since the early seventies, policy has been to offshore as many jobs as possible (i.e., free trade) while admitting countless millions of immigrants to bid down wages on the jobs that are left (i.e., open borders). The real wonder is that things are as good as they are, particularly for young people just starting out in life.

This is one of my biggest problems with capitalism as it is currently practiced: It is self-defeating. Sure, it's not hard at all for the rich to impoverish the rest of us; it's what Marx called immiseration of the proletariat. But once they do, they can't sell us what they produce, and a situation like we have now, or even depression, are the results.

Communism was a direct reaction to right-liberalism (read capitalism) because of its shabby treatment of the less capable--and most of us are less capable when competing with the likes of Bill Gates or Warren Buffett. Communism simply had some fundamental internal contradictions that rendered it unworkable.



Ann2011
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03 Jun 2013, 7:54 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Regarding health care, the biggest problem with socialized medicine is that there is no charge to the end user.

True . . . but the wait is so long, you do have to be pretty motivated to actually get to see someone.

Quote:
...she had an ambulance called and was rushed off to the hospital. My guess is that if she would have had to pay for that trip out of her own pocket that it never would've happened.

I did have had to pay for an ambulance . . . in my city it is not covered.

Quote:
This is one of my biggest problems with capitalism as it is currently practiced: It is self-defeating. Sure, it's not hard at all for the rich to impoverish the rest of us; it's what Marx called immiseration of the proletariat. But once they do, they can't sell us what they produce, and a situation like we have now, or even depression, are the results.

Not only is it frustrating financially not to be able to earn enough money to survive, but it is also damaging psychologically because there is no sense of contributing to and participating in society.



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03 Jun 2013, 8:15 pm

x7b4 wrote:
I'm a communist. I'm wondering if my Asperger played a role there? What do you think?

It could have, people need lots of connections to "succeed" in capitalism. So if you are like me and not capable of etiquette people skills it bites you in the ass very hard. I just want to live a free comfortable life, not to be bogged down by rulers. This is why communism and egoist anarchism are very appealing to me.



Last edited by RushKing on 03 Jun 2013, 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric76
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03 Jun 2013, 8:20 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
eric76 wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
I lean Libertarian in terms of how the Federal government operates, but I'm fairly open to socialism operated by state and municipal government. We have state and local police. We have local fire rescue, ambulances,and snow plow service. it makes sense that a medical safety net could be run by city or state government to.

I also look to Canada and find some appeal in the fact that their Health Care seems to be Provincial. I'm sure Ottawa has some pull by attaching strings to subsidies, but they don't run the whole thing.


A couple of years ago, a woman from Canada who lives in Mexico wrote about her and her husband going to Canada for a medical operation for her husband. The operation would be paid for by the government, but it would be at least 6 to 8 weeks before it could be performed. They returned to Mexico and he had the operation the same week in Mexico. While they had to pay all of their medical bills out of their pocket, those bills were less than what it would have cost them to hang around in Canada for the 6 to 8 weeks waiting for the operation.


In a way that's a success for Canada's system. The waiting times deter foreigners who don't pay Canadian taxes from coming to our country just to take advantage of our health care system. It doesn't cost Canadian citizens a cent to stay in Canada but foreigners have to rent a place or stay in a hotel for 6-8 weeks.

The long wait times are usually a bad thing but you've just provided an example of how they benefit our country.


In this case, they weren't foreigners, but native-born Canadian citizens who have been living in Mexico for a year or two for the climate and the lower cost of living.



eric76
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03 Jun 2013, 8:27 pm

auntblabby wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
In a way that's a success for Canada's system. The waiting times deter foreigners who don't pay Canadian taxes from coming to our country just to take advantage of our health care system.

I would take the Canadian system [over the American non-system] in a heartbeat. the republicans will never let obamacare [or anything which actually extends coverage to the working poor] work.


I find it difficult to imagine how it can ever work the way it was designed by the leftist special interests. It is a system designed for major government oversight at a very heavy cost.

If you actually want to make health care available to everyone, the best way would be to turn to Capitalism. Our health care system as it has been practice for a long time is hardly Capitalist, but rather a monopoly granted by the government to the medical establishment who rule it for their own benefit.



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03 Jun 2013, 8:39 pm

eric76 wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
eric76 wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
I lean Libertarian in terms of how the Federal government operates, but I'm fairly open to socialism operated by state and municipal government. We have state and local police. We have local fire rescue, ambulances,and snow plow service. it makes sense that a medical safety net could be run by city or state government to.

I also look to Canada and find some appeal in the fact that their Health Care seems to be Provincial. I'm sure Ottawa has some pull by attaching strings to subsidies, but they don't run the whole thing.


A couple of years ago, a woman from Canada who lives in Mexico wrote about her and her husband going to Canada for a medical operation for her husband. The operation would be paid for by the government, but it would be at least 6 to 8 weeks before it could be performed. They returned to Mexico and he had the operation the same week in Mexico. While they had to pay all of their medical bills out of their pocket, those bills were less than what it would have cost them to hang around in Canada for the 6 to 8 weeks waiting for the operation.


In a way that's a success for Canada's system. The waiting times deter foreigners who don't pay Canadian taxes from coming to our country just to take advantage of our health care system. It doesn't cost Canadian citizens a cent to stay in Canada but foreigners have to rent a place or stay in a hotel for 6-8 weeks.

The long wait times are usually a bad thing but you've just provided an example of how they benefit our country.


In this case, they weren't foreigners, but native-born Canadian citizens who have been living in Mexico for a year or two for the climate and the lower cost of living.


Then why couldn't they just go back to their home in Canada? It sounds like they moved out of the country. If you're going to move to a different country you have to be willing to adjust to the different system. A year or two of living in Mexico isn't a vacation. How were they supporting themselves without a job? They could've been telecommuting but if they weren't then they were either working at a Mexican job or living off stockpiled savings.



Last edited by seaturtleisland on 03 Jun 2013, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
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03 Jun 2013, 8:40 pm

eric76 wrote:
If you actually want to make health care available to everyone, the best way would be to turn to Capitalism. Our health care system as it has been practice for a long time is hardly Capitalist, but rather a monopoly granted by the government to the medical establishment who rule it for their own benefit.

judging by how monopolies have rendered many tests for various diseases financially out of reach for legions, I fail to get how making our capitalist system even more capitalist [read: monopolistic] can do anything but make it even more expensively out of reach for most working people.



auntblabby
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03 Jun 2013, 8:42 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Then why couldn't they just go back to their home in Canada? It sounds like they moved out of the country. If you're going to move to a different country you have to be willing to adjust to the different system. A year or two of living in Mexico isn't a vacation. How were they supporting themselves without a job? They could've been telecommuting but if they weren't then they were either working at a Mexican job or living off stockpiled savings.

it is safe to say they were probably richer than the average Canadian who, due to financial limitations, had not the option of moving out of country for whatever reason.