Why Can't People Leave Religious People Alone?

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Meistersinger
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17 Oct 2013, 12:50 am

JayZoN-X wrote:
There is nothing wrong with being religious. I personally used to be an atheist then i realized the science i believe in and faith in a greater power are not mutually exclusive but actually explain the bigger picture. Science can't exist without God, and God's blueprint for the universe is science.

I however do not believe in everything the Bible says.


I believe that everything in the Bible is the literal words God. However, it's man that screwed up the message, not God.

However, when it comes to the Ceation Story, I do not believes it was created in 7 24 hour days. There was a passage, in one of Paul's epistles that states "A day with The Lord is but a million years." That, as well as the fact the theory of evolution, in one physicist's eyes, do not jibe with the three laws of thermodynamics. Given these 2 statements, I have no problem reconciling the Creation Story with evolution.


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91
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17 Oct 2013, 1:01 am

No Christian ever searched my luggage for a book on atheism. I have however had my luggage searched by people who professed to be atheists who were looking for a Bible.


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17 Oct 2013, 1:30 am

Fnord wrote:
According to my religious "Friends" ( :roll: ), Atheists are doing just that by "[i]... promoting evolution, homosexuality, and multiculturalism in our public schools!


This is why I regard myself as an anti theist. If religious organisations were only concerned with themselves I would not care. Except of course I believe that brain washing children to believe creation over what is pretty much evolutionary fact is a form of child abuse.

In many countries I would be killed for my non belief, in Iran for example I would be hung for the crime of "being at war with god". In many Christian dominated countries the Christian lobby tries to force legislation that interferes with the lives of non believers. Just today I heard an argument against a bill to legalise euthanasia in Tasmania, an MP voting against the bill said and I quote "God forbids us to take another persons life". He also described the bill as an elitist attack on Christians. So OP I will back off religions when they behave like you I.E Do not demand other people live in accordance with their beliefs.


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LKL
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17 Oct 2013, 1:53 am

91 wrote:
No Christian ever searched my luggage for a book on atheism. I have however had my luggage searched by people who professed to be atheists who were looking for a Bible.

?
Seriously? Where was that, North Korea? Because I think that a fair case could be made that they actually worship the 'Dear Leader.'



91
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17 Oct 2013, 2:34 am

LKL wrote:
91 wrote:
No Christian ever searched my luggage for a book on atheism. I have however had my luggage searched by people who professed to be atheists who were looking for a Bible.

?
Seriously? Where was that, North Korea? Because I think that a fair case could be made that they actually worship the 'Dear Leader.'


Maybe they do but they would never agree to that statement. Certainly some people think that North Koreans worship Kim Il Sung but I don't think so myself. The government there does not really care about irony or ideology anymore. Their only goal is staying in power. The ruling elite of the central military commission draws it's legitimacy from Kim Il Sung and due to their need to keep the tensions heightened everything there is blown out of proportion. In reality they mostly persecute religious people because it was a policy of the first president who was an atheist and also a mad man. But they have a deep respect for him that appears legitimate but they themselves would never call it worship.

I would not go so far as to call the idea that they worship the leaders wrong but I don't affirm that view myself. Some of the people there are true believers that killing religious people makes the world a better place and they have gulags for active believers.


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LKL
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17 Oct 2013, 2:54 am

I have never heard a single thing about North Korea, from anyone, that makes me think, "Gosh, that might be a nice place to live."



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17 Oct 2013, 6:42 am

Meistersinger wrote:
However, when it comes to the Creation Story, I do not believes it was created in 7 24 hour days. There was a passage, in one of Paul's epistles that states "A day with The Lord is but a million years." That, as well as the fact the theory of evolution, in one physicist's eyes, do not jibe with the three laws of thermodynamics. Given these 2 statements, I have no problem reconciling the Creation Story with evolution.
Actually, the verses you refer to use the word "thousand", not "million", and neither instance refers to the Creation period. Both places - 2 Peter 3:8 and Pslams 90:4 - simply illustrate that God exists outside of linear time.

Another detail is that the Genesis account uses the word "yom" as "day", and it was specifically chosen because only "yom" can refer to a literal day. If the writers intended to suggest longer periods of time, they would've used other words.

Finally, there's a sense of warped logic in the "long Creation" theory, because its inconsistent. "Yom" is also used for "day" when Jesus is in the tomb...so was He there for three literal days, or three thousand years? If you're going to accept one meaning of a word in a clear example of its intent, then all examples with that same structure should be treated equally as well.


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17 Oct 2013, 8:09 am

LKL wrote:
I have never heard a single thing about North Korea, from anyone, that makes me think, "Gosh, that might be a nice place to live."


Han. 한


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17 Oct 2013, 8:37 am

LKL wrote:
I have never heard a single thing about North Korea, from anyone, that makes me think, "Gosh, that might be a nice place to live."


They are "open" to tourists, since a few years. As far as I read from traveler experiences, they shall have plenty of wonderful, origin nature. Less because of them being so big fans of protecting environment, and more because of their industry being very small, still it sounds nice if you are interested into it. Dont mind all the nice guys you meet accidentally, offering you friendly to show you around. They are just the regime guys, caring for getting everything out of the way, that they dont want you to see, while on the other side honestly being interested in making your traveling enjoyable, so that you refer only positive stuff and how great and wonderful everything was, when traveling back home. ^^ As well, as if you are getting ill, you will mostly only see the super-duper propaganda hospitals, so that you are able to praise how great and wonderful everything is. Either care to have a political 100% completely neutral travel guide book (so only mentioning stuff and landscape but in NO way mentioning politics or history of the last 60 years) or it will be taken from you at the airport. As well as you must leave all kind of internet-capable smartphones at the airport (is given back), to "protect the north corean culture and habbits".

Or shortly, if you have humor and can accept from now and then, that your "accidently met but always hyper-friendly tourguide" tells you about a hundred thousend reasons, why visiting a certain place right now, were not as cool ad doing tons of other things, it seems to be a very interesting experience with tons of nature.



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17 Oct 2013, 11:27 am

Schneekugel wrote:
They are "open" to tourists, since a few years. As far as I read from traveler experiences, they shall have plenty of wonderful, origin nature. Less because of them being so big fans of protecting environment, and more because of their industry being very small, still it sounds nice if you are interested into it. Dont mind all the nice guys you meet accidentally, offering you friendly to show you around. They are just the regime guys, caring for getting everything out of the way, that they dont want you to see, while on the other side honestly being interested in making your traveling enjoyable, so that you refer only positive stuff and how great and wonderful everything was, when traveling back home. ^^ As well, as if you are getting ill, you will mostly only see the super-duper propaganda hospitals, so that you are able to praise how great and wonderful everything is. Either care to have a political 100% completely neutral travel guide book (so only mentioning stuff and landscape but in NO way mentioning politics or history of the last 60 years) or it will be taken from you at the airport. As well as you must leave all kind of internet-capable smartphones at the airport (is given back), to "protect the north corean culture and habbits".

Or shortly, if you have humor and can accept from now and then, that your "accidently met but always hyper-friendly tourguide" tells you about a hundred thousend reasons, why visiting a certain place right now, were not as cool ad doing tons of other things, it seems to be a very interesting experience with tons of nature.


Are you mad? I am sure it is a great place, if you can ignore the lack of roads, the starving kids and the utterly depressing reality of being in a place where 1 million starved and the government shoots them for complaining. My guides spent more time asking for cigarets and hoping we would go to a restaurant than they did being nice to us. It was also really good when they picked on the Japanese student who spent some times with us. Also fantastic, was after the paraded their 6 year old musicians in front of us, who were the most sad looking children I have ever seen. Or when we went to a park and gave a child an apple he was worried his dad would beat him if he ate it, because it was worth so much. Or there were the Chinese tourists throwing candy at the children like they were pigeons.


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17 Oct 2013, 4:06 pm

Many people seem to be defending anti-religiousness based on the actions of a few, just as the religious get upset by a few outspoken athiests...
I'm not religious anymore, though I'm fairly open to it if it can be reasonably historically/scientifically supported, and perhaps it can.
But for those saying just keep your beliefs to yourself, I see nothing wrong with respectfully sharing what you think. For someone who sincerely believes that those who don't accept their beliefs is going to be eternally tormented, what kind of jerk do they have to be to not try to convert anyone? They are well-intentioned and not necessarily judgmental.

I also think religion has held societies together for a long time. Without it, there is no logical incentive for morality.



DentArthurDent
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17 Oct 2013, 7:13 pm

^ the actions of a few, really a few. Aside from assigning quotas to the number of religious organisations and people who actively try to interfere with the day to day activities of people who do not hold to their particular doctrine, the influence these groups and individuals have is quite profound.

In relation to morals and society it astounds me how many people still hold that without religion we would be living in an amoral world. This canard has been shown to be nonsense so many times, give up trying to gain traction with it in an intelligent debate.


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17 Oct 2013, 7:29 pm

Over 75% of people who are killed for religious reasons are Christian. Islamic countries have replaced communist countries as having the majority of states on a watch list for persecution (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-jam ... 02644.html http://www.opendoors.org.au/persecutedc ... yprofiles/). So whist I sympathise with you dent, it is worth keeping it all in perspective. An atheist is far more likely to kill a Christian for religious reasons than the other way around. As for myself, I do hold that without God there can be no grounding for objective morality but I would never agree that religion we have no logical incentive for morality. You don't need to be religious to know the difference between right or wrong or have religion to have moral structure. It is a very important distinction to make.


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17 Oct 2013, 7:46 pm

91 wrote:
Over 75% of people who are killed for religious reasons are Christian. Islamic countries have replaced communist countries as having the majority of states on a watch list for persecution (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-jam ... 02644.html http://www.opendoors.org.au/persecutedc ... yprofiles/). So whist I sympathise with you dent, it is worth keeping it all in perspective. An atheist is far more likely to kill a Christian for religious reasons than the other way around. As for myself, I do hold that without God there can be no grounding for objective morality but I would never agree that religion we have no logical incentive for morality. You don't need to be religious to know the difference between right or wrong or have religion to have moral structure. It is a very important distinction to make.


Why do you believe that a deity is required for a "grounding for objective morality"?



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17 Oct 2013, 7:49 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Why do you believe that a deity is required for a "grounding for objective morality"?


A different conversation, for another time.


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17 Oct 2013, 8:12 pm

91 wrote:
Over 75% of people who are killed for religious reasons are Christian. Islamic countries have replaced communist countries as having the majority of states on a watch list for persecution (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-jam ... 02644.html http://www.opendoors.org.au/persecutedc ... yprofiles/). So whist I sympathise with you dent, it is worth keeping it all in perspective. An atheist is far more likely to kill a Christian for religious reasons than the other way around. As for myself, I do hold that without God there can be no grounding for objective morality but I would never agree that religion we have no logical incentive for morality. You don't need to be religious to know the difference between right or wrong or have religion to have moral structure. It is a very important distinction to make.

91, do you have a source for the claim that Christians are more persecuted than people of other religions? And not that there is any excuse for murdering people (especially not for thought crimes), but how much of that is Christian missionaries going into places like Afghanistan where proselytizing and conversion (and atheism, for that matter) carry the death penalty?

The link you gave shows which countries are worst for christians, but it doesn't compare chriatian abuse to those of other faiths. I've been under the impression that most of the religious killing for the last few decades has been Muslims of one sect or another killing each other over religious differences.