My inflexibility over a trivial issue makes me a bad parent

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This is a dumb thing, but it makes me really upset.

My kids are in Middle School and their math teachers keep insisting that they write decimals in terms of tenths, hundredths, thousandths and so on.

I can see that there may be some pedagogical value in the teachers using this stilted and unnatural speech, but to insist that the kids do it is an asinine attack on reality. NO ONE EVER USES THIS LANGUAGE THIS WAY!

PI = three point one four one five nine -- NOT three and one tenth and four hundredths and one thousandth, etc.! !!

One Parsec = three point two six light years -- NOT three and two tenths and six hundredth light years!! !

Lead melts at three hundred twenty seven point five degrees -- NOT three hundred twenty seven and five tenths degrees.

No mathematician or scientist uses the form they insist that sixth graders use.

WTF for????

Pedagogy should not do violence to epistemology!

My NT wife tells me I am being a bad dad when I get irritated by stupid things the school does. She tells me I should not call them stupid (really, it's much more polite than some of the other descriptive phrases that came to mind when my son said they had marked him down for using STANDARD NOTATION.)

I realize that it's just possible that my reaction to this is absurd and an example of my ASD thinking at work, but honestly, the whole thing makes me livid.

Is this just me? Does wanting to protect my kids from a lunatic curriculum make me a bad dad? What do you think?

Actually, if we were going to express things that way, 3.159 would be three and one hundred fifty-nine thousandths. Even when expressing things in mixed fractions, nobody strings them together like an addition problem, because it's way too inefficient.

On the other hand, they may just be trying to teach the concepts of tenths, hundredths and thousandths to the kids, and so forcing them to use that language teaches the concept. Not a great rationale, but it is one way to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm with you though, this sort of thing frustrated me a lot when I was in school. It may be helpful to think of it as an opportunity to teach your children the important lesson that sometimes they will have to take orders and be respectful to people who aren't as smart as them. One part of this may include engaging in pointless tasks, and even pretending to accept things as fact even if they are wrong. As long as the kids learn to keep an internal critical eye, so that they can eventually right those wrongs, they'll be ok.

I think you know the answer is "no" and if you don't, you should.

It is evidently how they teach it b/c I coincidentally had the same issue with the pre-printed worksheets, and discussed this very same issue with my son, last week. I have the luxury of just telling him what the expected format is, and once I know he knows how to give that answer, if needed, I let him do it the right way. If he were in school, who knows. I think they would give him a hard time just to bust chops.

I had a similar issue last year on simplified fractions, with the district idiot who came to observe my son, though not his teacher. If you have the teacher as an ally, she'll work with you on that kind of thing. If not...

Your wife is wrong in not thinking you should call them stupid (They are) although maybe she thinks you should not do it in front of your son b/c he might repeat it and get in trouble; or if it might result in him copping an attitude and getting in trouble. I could understand that aspect, if your son might do that.

Pragmatically, the best thing is to tell your son it is what is required and to do it that way, but to continue to know his way is more like what happens in the real world

I think they do it this way to make sure the kids know 0.1= 1/10 and are afraid if you just say "point one," you can get away with not knowing the meaning or it will not be reinforced enough. So, that means you have another out, and you can say that all the kids have to do it that way, so the kids who are having trouble will understand.

I tend to see them as interchangeable depending on what the question is that is being asked.

I could see how it would be more technically correct to have a teacher tell your son to write Pi to the thousandth decimal place instead of to the hundredth. It would be easier to say "three decimal places" but that would be technically unintelligent. However, I do agree that I would say what you did if someone asked me what Pi is.

That would be my assumption and I think it's a valid one.

Yes, the language is awkward, and it's unnecessary for an adult who already knows what the numbers and decimal places represent, but with kids whose minds are still quite pliant and easily distracted, it is sometimes more efficient to drive the message home by repitition, repitition, repitition...

As a poor math student, I understand that rationale and I don't think it's a bad idea. Decimals and fractions always stumped me at that age. People teaching mathematics, who are whizzes at it, often forget, or seem unable to comprehend, that for many of their students, it's an incomprehensible foreign language.

A lot of it seems completely irrational and illogical, if like myself, your brain is naturally programmed toward language. When people start sticking alphabetic characters into an algebraic formula, my brain starts to hurt, because those symbols represent SOUNDS, not NUMBERS. They exist to construct WORDS, not represent abstract numerical unknowns. Things like that cause my mind to reject the instruction and automatically tune it out as non sequitur. It clashes with my sense of aesthetic symmetry, therefore, it isn't worth knowing. It looks like chaos and anarchy. I do not like chaos and anarchy, so I don't care to hear it.

I realize that to a mathematician, that seems absurd, but if you want your message heard, you have to make it accessible.

Yes. This was my written equivalent of sneering contempt.

Nobody says .00059 as, "fifty nine hundred thousandths" either. They say, "point naught naught naught five nine," if they are British. They say, "point zero zero zero five nine," if they are from other parts of the Anglosphere. The moment they learn scientific notation they say "five point nine times ten to the minus four" and stick with it because it's obviously useful!


This is a fine reason for the teachers to speak in this way, but to teach that it is "correct" and mark students in error when they don't do it... that is simply wrong, no matter the justification.


This sort of thing was the only reason I was ever disciplined in school. My heart says, "eppur si muove!" and will not shut up, even when the pyre is being built. It would feel like the height of hypocrisy to teach my children to go along with what I cannot do myself.
Tactical obedience to bad authority is a good lesson.

Maybe I am not the very best dad in this situation, but it's SO WRONG!

I remember being in school, teachers always wanted you to show your work. That means crossing out numbers and writing down other numbers and showing them how you did the problem to get the correct answer. I never understood this concept. I thought only the correct answer mattered and they cared about how you did the problem and if it was "wrong" you were marked down for it even though you got the right answer. My ex boyfriend is right, math is black and white. I forgot about decimals. I think I was first introduced to them in fourth grade with division and I can remember having to move them too in my answers. Math got harder and harder because it got more abstract and there is so much to remember.

I don't think it makes you a bad parent to think the school is stupid for what they are doing. What does it have to do with parenting?

P.S. This one issue does not make you a bad parent in any way, shape, or decimal! I don't see what the big deal is if you disagree with school methodology, you have a right to your concerns and how the methods being implemented affect your children. As long as you don't threaten structural or personal harm to the school, I think you're within your rights as a parent to express your frustration with the educational system.

I had this argument with my wife last night and she seemed to feel that when my kids asked about this and I said "in this case the rules you have to follow are stupid. But you have to get the best grade you can so go ahead and do the stupid thing they ask you, but--trust me--you will never have to do this again. Ask the science teacher what a parsec is. She will say 'three point two six light years,' because that's how everyone actually says decimals."

My wife said that I should not call the practices at the school stupid. I should not encourage my kids to test the validity of what they are being taught by comparing it to actual practice. This was BAD parenting, I was told. It's not a big deal, really. A squabble.

A squabble, but the whole thing violates some deep sense of right and wrong for me. Hard to let go!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ofi_L6eAo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFNjA9LOPsg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ-HwrOpIps

You're not a bad parent imo. I think it's healthy that you teach your child to question things. But I would lay off terms like 'stupid' in case he repeats it and gets into trouble for being cheeky.

Did she give you a reason for what she thinks? Absent any explanation, I would assume that she has a very different notion of authority and feels it ought to be complied with and not "undermined" (or maybe she thinks this mainly about children) or she is afraid your child will get into additional trouble at school either by using that verbiage in school, or by being "subordinate" as a result of your "encouragement."

I think what you said makes perfect aspie sense, and so your child would probably get it.

I agree with Willard 100%. The only reason I didn't type it myself is because he typed it first.

But did want to add that it in no way makes you a bad parent.

It does serve as an opportunity for you to explore with your kids ways of handling it appropriately when you disagree with an authority figure, though. That is a real life lesson that they could benefit from. Sometimes it is worth standing up for, and sometimes it is best to just go with the flow.

If the kid already fully understands place value, there is zero value in this.

Giving a kid like mine an error mark and points off for work that is correct in every detail but this is setting the cart before the horse.

But I suppose, it makes sense to attack them for using mathematical language In the way all mathematicians and scientists do, for the sake of an unproven idea about what might benefit some other hypothetical student. I just love it when the needs of the system are set above the needs of the person. / sarcasm.

Regarding the squabble, I assume that your wife is just taking a pragmatic approach...she doesn't want the kids getting in trouble, and she doesn't want you to rile them up too much, so they can't get along with their teacher. It's probably a good thing for your kids to have both aspects represented in their parents - the pragmatism and the idealism. You can be there to validate your kid's frustration, and your wife can help channel that into something productive. The most important thing is that when it comes to rules and expectations, you and your wife are more or less consistent with each other. That way the kids don't get too confused.

Adamantium, I see your point. And please understand as you read this that I have the greatest respect for you, and I enjoy reading your posts and often find myself aligned with you.

Another perspective...let's say that the "average" kid benefits from this mode of instruction...should the needs of the one (your son) override the needs of the many? To be fair, unless you have documented evidence that their teaching methods are not effective for most kids, or unless you have researched the issue and determined their is no evidence to support this teaching method, it is not very fair to dismiss it as "unproven" simply because from your perspective it is irrelevant.

Here is the way I would view it if I were in your shoes (and I realize I am not and you are certainly under no obligation to ascribe to my view at all): if there were something specific to my child's disability that prevented him/her from doing as asked, I would ask for an accommodation. If it is simply a matter that my child does not need to do this, but is perfectly capable of doing it, then I would make my kid do it.

Sometimes the lessons learned as children expand past the obvious one. Does your son understand the concept of decimals without repetition? Perhaps. So, he has mastered that part of the lesson. That may mean it is now time to focus on another lesson that will perhaps have a bigger impact on his success in the workplace: that of being able to adjust/adapt, particularly to authority. While there are a few jobs out there that prize someone's ability to push the envelop, rock the boat, and question accepted assumptions, most employers require that people be able to follow direction, whether or not they agree with the particular methods of the assigned task. This is a useful skill to have. It is also useful to learn how to appropriately call attention to things in times like this. If I had an employee come to me and say "your way of doing this is stupid and unproven and I shouldn't have to do it," I can promise you I would not take kindly to it. There is a reason I do things the way I do at work, and a reason why I insist my staff do things the way I insist they do them. However, if someone approached me and said "I see some inefficiencies in the way we are doing things and I have an idea of how to make things better, can we discuss them?" I would jump at the chance to hear the idea. In fact, this happens rather regularly on my team. Likewise, there are some processes that I oversee that could be effectively done more than one way. However, for consistency and efficiency's sake we all have to do them the same way. I have one employee who would prefer another method. But the truth is, she has to adapt. If she can't, she can't stay on my team. There is nothing "wrong" with the way she would like to do the particular thing, but there is also nothing "wrong" with the way we are doing it. Since we need consistency in this instance, she needs to sacrifice her preference for the good of the team. It's as simple as that. If she can't, she can't stay.

I think from the point of view of the disagreement between you and your wife, it may be beneficial to think through this and see where all the cards lie, so to speak. Sometimes inflexibility is good. Sometimes it is not. The key to moving past unproductive inflexibility is to recognize when it exists. A lightbulb went on in my head in regards to this when I learned about the concept of "functional fixedness." When I learned about it, I realized from a different perspective, how rigidity is a limitation, and I started challenging myself to rise above it. The more I did it, the better I got at it. When I was a child, I would probably be described as inflexible. At this point in time, people frequently describe me as flexible. It is relatively easy for me to see multiple "right ways" for almost anything (unless it bumps against a central belief), because I have trained myself to do it to the point that it is overlearned, and therefore has become automatic.

With my kids, I always look for opportunities to teach life lessons. I still maintain that there is a huge opportunity to teach a life lesson here. Since you are self-describing as "inflexible," perhaps it is an opportunity for self-development as well?