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Did Jesus really exist?
Yes 74%  74%  [ 31 ]
No 26%  26%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 42

simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 3:31 am

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Just because the Gospels we have now had been written maybe a century or so later (and even that late of a date is disputed), it doesn't mean that there weren't earlier documents. And even so, why would oral tradition necessarily be suspect?


Believe whatever you like. The bible says the bible is accurate doesn't work for me. Sprinkling some oral tradition on it doesn't really improve the taste.



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12 Feb 2014, 3:58 am

simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Just because the Gospels we have now had been written maybe a century or so later (and even that late of a date is disputed), it doesn't mean that there weren't earlier documents. And even so, why would oral tradition necessarily be suspect?


Believe whatever you like. The bible says the bible is accurate doesn't work for me. Sprinkling some oral tradition on it doesn't really improve the taste.


You have your opinion, and I have mine.


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12 Feb 2014, 5:43 am

Hey Mario did Jesus exist? [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NkbN0ezGf4[/youtube]


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12 Feb 2014, 7:00 am

I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 10:34 am

simon_says wrote:
People lie about every subject under the sun. Did Joe Smith lie about his scrying stones, North American mythology and all the rest? Or was it just an innocent myth? He lied his a** off and the only reason we can be more certain about his character defects than Christ's and the apostles' potential defects is that there are more records in Smith's near modern world.

People are people in every age.


Well..there is a a big difference..between a social lie..and a malicious lie..

There is a lot misanthropic intention given to the human race..on this website..

that is seriously not reflective of reality...

It is more reflective of preconceived notions..through individual perceptions of a life through the limitations of cognitive empathy...

People more often lie in real life..not to hurt the feelings of other folks..we are social animals we do not exist..
in totality of human existence..by making it a purpose in life to maliciously lie to other folks for mal-intent..

Granted there are a certain number of folks that are of the anti-social personality variety...

But one's lens is colored by one's personal experience..

And the stories of social abuse..perceived as such..when it's not even happening is documented on this website..thousands of times...

Seeing mal-intention in others when there is no real evidence for it..is common among Autistic folks..and yes i struggled with it too..

But i worked with tens of thousands of real live folks in real life..serving them ..helping them..and getting to know them in real life..
95 to 99 percent overall were honest..and loving folks...

But it's not just my opinion..humans are social animals..and social animals get along or they die..it is in most folks genes..
but not all...and certainly not on this website..overall..

Not an objective place..certainly to capture this type of overall human social data....for a general population sample group...

And the largest part of all..in my opinion..why there is such disgust here expressed about religion in general..and GOD..

For at least some part..it's just not inherently beneficial to many folks on this site..so there is no selfish reason to understand it..

Sad but true..as if this were not the case..there could be at least some more cognitive empathy..

to undertand the real documenTED benefits of even the POWER OF BELIEF..ALL UNTO ITSELF..AS A HUMAN ATTRIBUTE..AND TREASURE...
TO MAKE BETTER THINGS HAPPEN IN LIFE FOR REAL LIFE FOLKS...EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY..

AND THAT'S A FACT...BELIEF IS REAL ..BELIEF MAKES GREAT THINGS HAPPEN...

IT DON'T MATTER THE OBJECT OF THE BELIEF..

IT IS THE HUMAN ATTRIBUTE OF BELIEF AND POSITIVE THINKING..

ITSELF..that can make human beings an animal in bliss...like most other animals..

that never learn to hate..or learn all these illusory fears..about ill intention of others..when it does not even exist....

And that is a general statement...i am not aiming this at you as an individual..or any other specific individual here..i know nothing about you personally....

But just a quick example..i used to refer to folks on this site as friend..or friends..even when i disagreed with them...

and they saw malicious intent in it...

Why the hell would i like someone less...if i enjoyed a good argument with them...

And why the f**k as a human being..would i not see another live flesh and blood human being..as not a friend...

See what i mean ..preconceived notions...

i can call poets i disagree with friends all day and all night..but the difference is...

They have plenty of cognitive empathy..and look past superficial disagreements..as part of a normal human experience...

i adapted ...i have cognitive empathy..because i refused ..to stay in the dark..

Took five decades or so..but it worked..

i do even test as 11 on the AQ test now..instead of 44 or 45..
and 92 on the Aspie Quiz instead of 195...

i cured the empathic difficulties of autism..

And in effect..i am no longer disabled by it..in real life...

but i still have the beneficial parts..

and enjoy life now..
with twice as much brain..yes..the mechanical cognition part..
and the equally important part...
the social cognition part..for FULL HUMAN INTELLIGENCE..

And if i can do it..with my severely autistic mind..non-verbal and all of that as a child...

i really think..there is hope for MOST anyone..with epigenetics..and neuroplasitcity..

IF THEY JUST DON'T GIVE UP..
AND REALLY WANT TO BE A
FULL HUMAN INTELLIGENT BEING....
YES EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE..INCLUDED..
AS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF HUMAN INTELLIGENCE THERE IS

FOR ONE SIMPLE REASON...

overall SURVIVAL...

HUMANS ARE interdependent on each other...
Culture may provide the illusion to some folks they aren't.

but that's a pipe dream..at least..if one lives long enough..
to find that FULLY INTELLIGENT answer....


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Last edited by aghogday on 12 Feb 2014, 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

AspieOtaku
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12 Feb 2014, 10:37 am

babybird wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.
Jesus can be found hanging out in front of Home Depot offering to work on your roof!


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 10:38 am

babybird wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.


Well..nothing really to be afraid of...i think..

He don't judge people..
as far as i know...all those
going to hell myths and all of that...
if ya break a rule or two or any of that....

The real Jesus dude..he ain't for that..kinda stuff..

He was probably just calling to see how ya were doing...:)
and hoping ya got a good night sleep..and all of that;)


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 10:56 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
babybird wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was talking on the phone to Jesus.

When I woke up my heart was pounding and I was sweating. I was really scared.
Jesus can be found hanging out in front of Home Depot offering to work on your roof!


NO that's not possible..Jesus was a trained carpenter..

not a roofer..;)

That is if you are a fundamentalist

Atheist..

but if not .. perhaps..
he could do
both..:)


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simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 3:04 pm

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Well..there is a a big difference..between a social lie..and a malicious lie..


Someone invents these cults. Whether it's Joe Smith or David Koresh or Jim Jones or L Ron Hubbard or Jesus. Teasing out the lies is much easier in the modern age. This has nothing to do with AS. Do I know what 1st century Jesus or his disciples actually said versus what the bible records versus who lied when? No. But I have a series of examples of flawed men who are either lying or mentally ill and believing their delusions. So it's entirely possible.



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12 Feb 2014, 3:12 pm

simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Well..there is a a big difference..between a social lie..and a malicious lie..


Someone invents these cults. Whether it's Joe Smith or David Koresh or Jim Jones or L Ron Hubbard or Jesus. Teasing out the lies is much easier in the modern age. This has nothing to do with AS. Do I know what 1st century Jesus or his disciples actually said versus what the bible records versus who lied when? No. But I have a series of examples of flawed men who are either lying or mentally ill and believing their delusions. So it's entirely possible.


But even if Jesus was not really the Son of God, what's possibly wrong with telling people to love their neighbor, and more, to love their enemies? No one can tell me that Christ's message in itself was destructive. That's what separates him from from L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, etc.


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simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 3:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Well..there is a a big difference..between a social lie..and a malicious lie..


Someone invents these cults. Whether it's Joe Smith or David Koresh or Jim Jones or L Ron Hubbard or Jesus. Teasing out the lies is much easier in the modern age. This has nothing to do with AS. Do I know what 1st century Jesus or his disciples actually said versus what the bible records versus who lied when? No. But I have a series of examples of flawed men who are either lying or mentally ill and believing their delusions. So it's entirely possible.


But even if Jesus was not really the Son of God, what's possibly wrong with telling people to love their neighbor, and more, to love their enemies? No one can tell me that Christ's message in itself was destructive. That's what separates him from from L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, etc.


Some parts are fine and may have some utility to people in need of very simple moral intstruction. As do parts of other religions. But Christ's message seems to be a bit scattered and contradictory at times and I don't always find it admirable. And it's predicated on convincing people that the savage bronze age myths of the Old Testament are what a supreme diety would approve and transmit The OT is morally retarded. If someone followed its laws today they'd be in prison or on death row. And it seems to be almost as frequently cited by Christians today as the NT. Many enjoy its tone.

The idea that a supreme being would send a blood stained, error filled message through a random group of desert dwellers, not even write it directly himself, and then send his son to send a different message, who himself wouldn't bother to write down a single word, then let a series of contradictory reports spring up decades later, and then let scribes continue to alter and embellish this material for centuries is just about the most round about and unconvincing message he could possibly send. Maybe some random etchings inside in a series of old logs would be slightly less impressive.

What is the opportunity cost to society to teach people for millennia that they are ruled over by this kind of blood drenched tyrant looking to fry them? There are people who actually stress out over their fear of the god of the OT. They can read. It's not all sweetness and light and however much the friends of Jesus "it's all good bro" set wants to look at just the nice messages that won't change underlying context of the NT.



Last edited by simon_says on 12 Feb 2014, 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 4:23 pm

simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Well..there is a a big difference..between a social lie..and a malicious lie..


Someone invents these cults. Whether it's Joe Smith or David Koresh or Jim Jones or L Ron Hubbard or Jesus. Teasing out the lies is much easier in the modern age. This has nothing to do with AS. Do I know what 1st century Jesus or his disciples actually said versus what the bible records versus who lied when? No. But I have a series of examples of flawed men who are either lying or mentally ill and believing their delusions. So it's entirely possible.


Well..sure almost anything could be possible..i keep an open mind to that..but..

Oh yes..even documented science indicates that the difficulty with understanding the value of religion..lies among the specific disorder of autism spectrum disorders...

http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/procee ... er0782.pdf

And yes.. part of that study was associated with this 'varied' forum..
and in total affect and effect..
the sample studied..indicated that while quite a few folks here do not agree with organized religious ideology..
there is still 'never the greater'..only about 26% who are atheist..which is significantly higher than what was described as an internet..
control group of young adults..on another so called neurotypical site...but never the less..

GOD still 'reins' here...even in this forum..when totality of opinion..is addressed..overall...

But anyway..while it's easy to criticize..imperfect human beings..for the methods of gaining truth and a better life..

Religion..is common among all historic groups of human beings..and many prehistoric ones..it is an inherent cultural and important part of all humanity..
overall..for all of recorded history..and even now...

There are only approximately 2 percent atheists world wide..
and even about 90% of folks having some type of belief in GOD..only slightly down from the
World War II gloom and doom days of the 40's...in the US..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

But the saddest thing of all..is some people do not believe in anything..
And OH MY GOD some folks on this very site..believe that faith and belief means nothing..
in general...
Well .. modern science has evidence ..that is incorrect too.. tons and tons of evidence..contradict that opinion..2...

BUT..please don't take my word for it..

Science is up to par..finally on this..after about 2000 years..and 'silly' rants by folks like the historical man Jesus..

on the REAL HEALING..OR YES POTENTIAL DESTRUCTIVE HUMAN POWER
OF
BELIEF...NEGATIVE OR POSITIVE.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/own ... our-health

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2hO4_UEe-4[/youtube]

AND NO.. OF COURSE it's not going to regenerate an amputated limb..

But in the case of ONE OF THE worst of human maladies..and most common BEING arthritic pain..IT is already a well known fact..

that the pain of severe arthritis..per the underlying physiological effects..varies depending on the psychological state..
of the person..who has those x-ray and MRI..identified deficits..in human JOINT health...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzrjEP5MOT4[/youtube]

And yes it is a scientific fact now that STRESS KILLS..

And yes of course a positive attitude..makes all the difference in the world... on that..

One man's stress is another WOman's challenge and path to success...

Attitude..and positive or negative belief..and yes apathy too..makes us
more fully
what
we are...

With WILL WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE THIS THROUGH THE POWER OF BELIEF..
WITHOUT THAT WE ARE..WELL..
BASICALLY
WET
NOODLES....[/metaphor}(ONLY);)
AND NOT WELL @ALL...

Some folks find this through a belief in the healing power of GOD..or Jesus..or whatever...
and some folks find it through watching some videos above that say humans can heal themselves..
and believe it..
but the bottom line IS
IT WORKS IN REAL LIFE..A SCIENTIFICALLY DOCUMENTED FACT NOW 2..

SO the folks in the past that did not believe i
T..when just Jesus and those other historical dudes wERE teaching this...

Well..that was only tHEIR loss..
Not the folks that believed IT and YES in TRUE SCIENTIFIC AFFECT AND EFFECT..
SIMPLY HEALED THEMSELVES OR PREVENTED GREATER ILL..
THROUGH
THE POWER AND FORCE..
OF POSITIVE BELIEF..NO MATTER THE OBJECT..CONNECTED TO
THAT
BELIEF.

THIS AIN'T WOO..
IT'S REAL..BELIEF..
[email protected]

And yes..the type of life long friendships gained and kept in structured religious environments..are understood by science..
as the number 1 element leading to overall human happiness...

It's easy enough to pick on one or two details of any human effort..call the bath water too dirty..and throw the baby out...

But the bottom line is this..throughout human history in respect of yes all the negative things associated with religions..and beliefs..the evidence..
overall is so far in the ball court of the TRUE EFFECT AND AFFECT OF RELIGIONS OVERALL in REDUCING HUMAN SUFFERING...

THAT IT IS A BIT AMUSING..WE ARE EVEN DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT this is reality..

GOD ain't for everyone..
but YES GOD is for approximately
98% of 7 billion people on this planet in some shape fashion..energy..force..or form....
at this very
MOMENT..:)

SO SURE 2% of the population got it all correct..and the other 98% are just idiots..
yea sure..makes all the sense in the world..;)..about 2% of it...:)
with all due respect..all 2% of it...


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Last edited by aghogday on 12 Feb 2014, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
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12 Feb 2014, 4:31 pm

Let me review your argument:

A) I'm only an atheist because I have AS

B) Magically the "totality of opinion" on an AS form is still against me.

C) There are more believers so they are right.



aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 4:49 pm

simon_says wrote:
Let me review your argument:

A) I'm only an atheist because I have AS

B) Magically the "totality of opinion" on an AS form is still against me.

C) There are more believers so they are right.


(A) no of course not..only 26% percent of the folks here were considered atheist in the research..i'm going by the research not my opinion on that one...

(B) well if you consider whether or not being an atheist..makes their opinion against you..then yes..per 74% .. but in real life..it's never been an issue to me what any persons's belief in religion has to do with that..it's usually not even discussed in the real rat race of life..so i personally think it is deconstructive for a person to have that type of attitude..no different really than folks who think society is against them simply cause they got a diagnosis of autism..

Society..overall.. doesn't even know what the hell Asperger's even is..not now at this point in time..after that diagnosis..is history..

People who display any overt differences from the norm..are discriminated against..it's social animal nature in general..as a protective measure for survival...

But..as far as i know there is no way to identify a run of the mill atheist from a run of the mill Christian..until they get to arguing about it..and the abstract differences in language are made clear...

(C) Well..we live as social animals..and if 98% of the social animals are doing something..ya ain't gotta agree with it..and i myself do things in life that i personally think other folks could benefit from..like dance walking a style of TAI CHI ..belly dancing..and reverse walking all wrapped up in one..that i am the only person in a metro area of 300 K does..up to 23 miles in one day at my metro mall...

but i do know that our ancestors when they hunted did not walk on sidewalks..and moved much like i do...so i have a little bit of a rational..and evidenced well being..leading method.. behind what some people observe as madness...ridiculous or whatever..but at 53 i have the health of a 21 year old marine..in strength and stamina..when i compete against those folks in my military gym...and even comparable healthy skin complexion..so i'll let the evidence..speak it's mouth...on that one...

But here's the thing..we got enough information..scientific information..through the information highway..to get the common sense..like positive beliefs can heal folks..OR PREVENT ILLNESS..

But here's the other thing..it's getting harder and harder for folks without extended family connections to find REAL FLESH AND BLOOD FRIENDS..IN REAL LIFE...

Structured religions..in real buildings..where people meet ..find friends..and establish life long friendships..can most definitely be the difference between life or death ..in later age...OR EVEN IN EARLIER AGE...

It's kinda kool sometimes..to be young and alone when one is invincible..but when it comes time for a friend to check up on a friend..who is sick..or falls on some other hard time of life...IN REAL LIFE...

There is not much left these days..outside of work..or school..to make these 'third' place real life flesh and blood human connections..beyond work and school...

Easy to pooh pooh that too..until the REAL HOUR OF NEED COMES..

THIS SERIOUSLY IS JUST COMMON SENSE STUFF..AS IT RELATES TO HUMAN NATURE....

But i understand the misunderstanding of where folks get their preconceived notions..and i'm not suggesting you are wrong..or you NEED GOD .. JESUS ..RELIGIONS .. OR WHATEVER...

i just don't think you and many people on this site..are POTENTIALLY seeing the much much much larger picture and reality of all of the picture of religion..god..Jesus..and all that stuff...AS to THE REAL LIFE BENEFIT IT HAS FOR ABOUT 98% of the overall human population...

But i've been studying this for about 50 years..read 10 to 15 times faster than the average human being..and type about 130 words a minute..so no i do not expect you to have obtained all the information i currently have in those 5 decades..in regard to ALL OF THIS..
OR TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS IT IN THIS LENGTHY..COMPLEX..AND UNUSUAL STYLE OF
COMMUNICATION....
i share.. that is all..i share.
take it with a gran of a salt..
i
m just sharing..IS ALL


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Last edited by aghogday on 12 Feb 2014, 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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12 Feb 2014, 4:49 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

But even if Jesus was not really the Son of God, what's possibly wrong with telling people to love their neighbor, and more, to love their enemies? No one can tell me that Christ's message in itself was destructive. That's what separates him from from L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, etc.


If christ is god or n the son of god or not even devine is immaterial he demands that we love and obey god. This god is the most destructive, wrathful, petty minded, psychopathic teachers we know. We are made in gods image and given gods laws. So in effect we know the mind of god by his actions and those actions are often morally repugnant. He destroys whole cities because members of those cities have started to worship other gods, decrees that all the children shall be ripped asunder and the unborn cut from their mothers. He demands suffering for repentance and ultimately the only way to deal with human sin is the near death bashing then crucifixion of himself/gods son. And before you say that Jesus is the new way, no he is not, he stated that the old laws were to be followed.

Oh and by the way regarding the Pauline letters only a cursory internet search will show you that you have a lot of biblical revision to do.


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aghogday
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12 Feb 2014, 5:10 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

But even if Jesus was not really the Son of God, what's possibly wrong with telling people to love their neighbor, and more, to love their enemies? No one can tell me that Christ's message in itself was destructive. That's what separates him from from L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, etc.


If christ is god or n the son of god or not even devine is immaterial he demands that we love and obey god. This god is the most destructive, wrathful, petty minded, psychopathic teachers we know. We are made in gods image and given gods laws. So in effect we know the mind of god by his actions and those actions are often morally repugnant. He destroys whole cities because members of those cities have started to worship other gods, decrees that all the children shall be ripped asunder and the unborn cut from their mothers. He demands suffering for repentance and ultimately the only way to deal with human sin is the near death bashing then crucifixion of himself/gods son. And before you say that Jesus is the new way, no he is not, he stated that the old laws were to be followed.

Oh and by the way regarding the Pauline letters only a cursory internet search will show you that you have a lot of biblical revision to do.


WELL..unfortunately there are fundamentalists in both camps..so called Christians and so called Atheists...

But human beings have common sense..and it is a little ridiculous in my opinion..to suggest that a human being cannot read a friggin book like the bible..and separate the bull..away from the truth...

I never had a problem with that..if it does not ring true..i discard it immediately..

And if ya ask most people who go to church..pulling them to the side..to get their real interpretation of the bible..and their beliefs..

They are as varied as they are..in any group of atheists discussing this on the internet..

But to understand this one must participate..at least like a participant observer...

i've been doing this for decades..and it is crystal clear to me..and my friends at church..as well..

This is not a black and white issue at any church...

There is always tons of disagreement..for potential wherever two minds may meet..on almost any issue in life...

But yes...there are plenty of folks with the same type of common sense as Thomas Jefferson who simply separated the BS from the truth..
and he even made the time..to write a separate copy..to make it easier..for him and folks that tend to agree...

Church works for some folks..GOD works for some folks..Jesus works for some folks..the TAO..the TAI CHI..the DAO...QI..Dharma..great spirit..allah..or whatever .. vehicles or vessels of human language used as a tool..to get to truth...

Humans are rarely perfect..in their ascertainment of truth..
and if they were..it would kind of BE a boring life..in my opinion...

It is the seeking that is fun..
The destination..is just that..destination...not a verb..
a place...
but .. just in my opinion.. of course.


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