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heavenlyabyss
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10 Apr 2014, 7:08 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
I find this debate tactic to be rather shady and very callous - equation a struggling mom who makes a painful choice to abort (it's not like it's something they want to do) versus a psychopathic murder. Comparing mothers with psychopathic murders is rather devoid of empathy in my opinion. It's a debate tactic meant to shame.
Most abortions are not chosen due to a lack of options, but outright convenience. The "sexual revolution" convinced many women that the best way to gain respect was devaluing themselves in the present, just as perverted men had in the past. This led to women resenting their own ability to bear children.

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I think abortion should be allowed but only up to a certain number of weeks. As to how many, that's a difficult question to answer.
That whole idea is arbitrary, especially when science has proven a newly-fertilized zygote's 100% genetically identical to a grown adult. Corrupt people use it as an excuse to say in effect, "its our right to kill any baby we don't want, and if you try to stop us, you're horrible". After that, they cite the few hypocrites who'd abandon the kid after birth as a twisted illustration of the entire "pro-life" crowd.


I'm not sure how to respond to the first part of your post. I don't really want to go there.

As to the second part, I agree that the fertilized zygote is 100% genetically identical to a grown adult. However, I'm not sure it's relevant. Again, I don't really want to go there. I'm not overly sure on where I stand on this issue at this time.

I get the point you are making, but some would make the opposite claim that forcing someone to have a pregnancy is corrupt and controlling and intrusive. I tend to be more interested in where women stand on this issue since they seem to talk more rationally about it than men.



cannotthinkoff
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10 Apr 2014, 7:19 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Just one problem with that: the baby is not an inherent part of the mother's body. As such, she should have no right to kill that child. The only difference between the "pro-choice" crowd and other murderers is the location of a distinctly separate life.


The problem is that fetus is not a child. And generally children up to some age are just a property of their parents. Sanctity of life is just a debatable concept.

People don't concern themselves with the quality of life as much as with the fact of life. Strikes me as odd phenomena



voltagesparks
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10 Apr 2014, 8:25 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
I find this debate tactic to be rather shady and very callous - equation a struggling mom who makes a painful choice to abort (it's not like it's something they want to do) versus a psychopathic murder. Comparing mothers with psychopathic murders is rather devoid of empathy in my opinion. It's a debate tactic meant to shame.
Most abortions are not chosen due to a lack of options, but outright convenience. The "sexual revolution" convinced many women that the best way to gain respect was devaluing themselves in the present, just as perverted men had in the past. This led to women resenting their own ability to bear children.

Quote:
I think abortion should be allowed but only up to a certain number of weeks. As to how many, that's a difficult question to answer.
That whole idea is arbitrary, especially when science has proven a newly-fertilized zygote's 100% genetically identical to a grown adult. Corrupt people use it as an excuse to say in effect, "its our right to kill any baby we don't want, and if you try to stop us, you're horrible". After that, they cite the few hypocrites who'd abandon the kid after birth as a twisted illustration of the entire "pro-life" crowd.


I've always been struck by how men usually seem to be the ones debating this issue the most. Seeing as it isn't their own bodies and their own experiences. I am pro-life, but I am also pro-choice. Abortions are a horrible experience, and the majority of women who decide to go through with it don't do it just because. Like someone said already, there is usually a very good reason behind it. And a lot of women who go through this don't have supportive environments or a man to stand behind them and help raise a child. I am speaking from my personal hurtful experience, so don't presume convenience, let alone "resenting their own ability to bear children".

That said, this is such a complex matter and it's hard to be set in my opinion.



Moviefan2k4
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10 Apr 2014, 8:31 am

Abortion is murder, and anyone who condones it shares equal guilt with those who actually kill that baby. Why is it considered crazy for men to have thoughtful, intelligent views on abortion, but no one blinks when a man becomes a gynecologist? Both issues still deal with the female reproductive system, and you don't need a degree to recognize the obviousness of a human life, regardless of the courts.


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TheGoggles
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10 Apr 2014, 8:55 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Abortion is murder, and anyone who condones it shares equal guilt with those who actually kill that baby.

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thoughtful, intelligent views on abortion,


:?



The_Walrus
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10 Apr 2014, 9:33 am

TheGoggles wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Abortion is murder, and anyone who condones it shares equal guilt with those who actually kill that baby.

Quote:
thoughtful, intelligent views on abortion,


:?
:lol:



cannotthinkoff
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10 Apr 2014, 10:00 am

I really dont understand how fetus is a baby. its not its a peace of meat and bones.

if it wasnt for this weird " human life is sacred" ideology that people possess (though not really, hypocrisy at its best), we wouldn't have so many people and everyone would be happier

and maybe I hadnt been born to suffer. imagine that!



ToShinTim
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10 Apr 2014, 1:03 pm

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I really dont understand how fetus is a baby


How is this a difficult concept to understand? When people ask a pregnant woman about their obvious physical "change" (that being the baby), they don't say "oh, when is your fetus due to be born?". No. They say "when is your baby due?". Baby.

If you really want to get technical, I suppose you have a point, but it's the fact that, in time, it will "turn into" a baby.



cannotthinkoff
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10 Apr 2014, 1:09 pm

ToShinTim wrote:
Quote:
I really dont understand how fetus is a baby


How is this a difficult concept to understand? When people ask a pregnant woman about their obvious physical "change" (that being the baby), they don't say "oh, when is your fetus due to be born?". No. They say "when is your baby due?". Baby.

If you really want to get technical, I suppose you have a point, but it's the fact that, in time, it will "turn into" a baby.


I really, honestly fail to understand this. Is this down to some kind of feelings? Or faith? I mean, pregnant woman doesn't think that clearly anyway, she imagines all the future possibilities + has hormonal attachment.

But baby is not a baby until it is a baby. (and even then I would argue this further)



heavenlyabyss
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11 Apr 2014, 4:36 am

cannotthinkoff wrote:
ToShinTim wrote:
Quote:
I really dont understand how fetus is a baby


How is this a difficult concept to understand? When people ask a pregnant woman about their obvious physical "change" (that being the baby), they don't say "oh, when is your fetus due to be born?". No. They say "when is your baby due?". Baby.

If you really want to get technical, I suppose you have a point, but it's the fact that, in time, it will "turn into" a baby.


I really, honestly fail to understand this. Is this down to some kind of feelings? Or faith? I mean, pregnant woman doesn't think that clearly anyway, she imagines all the future possibilities + has hormonal attachment.

But baby is not a baby until it is a baby. (and even then I would argue this further)


I'm not sure we have the right to impose on others our view of when a fetus "becomes a baby." A scientist will call it a fetus, the mother will likely refer to "it" as her "baby" (understandably). Semantics. You can't just say a "fetus" is not a "baby" End of proof. Words are fuzzy. It is a philosophical question that science doesn't fully address.

I suppose I could argue that I'm murdering a potential future child by not having sex right now. Although that would be a little ridiculous.



heavenlyabyss
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11 Apr 2014, 7:11 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Abortion is murder, and anyone who condones it shares equal guilt with those who actually kill that baby. Why is it considered crazy for men to have thoughtful, intelligent views on abortion, but no one blinks when a man becomes a gynecologist? Both issues still deal with the female reproductive system, and you don't need a degree to recognize the obviousness of a human life, regardless of the courts.


No, you don't. Men can discuss it as well. I hope my previous comment wasn't offensive. I was kind of in a bad mood.

Abortion's a very interesting topic because there are a lot of women against it as well as men. It's easy to discriminate against one sex or the other.



Moviefan2k4
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11 Apr 2014, 11:11 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Abortion is murder, and anyone who condones it shares equal guilt with those who actually kill that baby. Why is it considered crazy for men to have thoughtful, intelligent views on abortion, but no one blinks when a man becomes a gynecologist? Both issues still deal with the female reproductive system, and you don't need a degree to recognize the obviousness of a human life, regardless of the courts.


No, you don't. Men can discuss it as well. I hope my previous comment wasn't offensive. I was kind of in a bad mood.

Abortion's a very interesting topic because there are a lot of women against it as well as men. It's easy to discriminate against one sex or the other.
At least you have some sensibility left, regarding this issue. If they were brutally honest, most women who favor abortion would admit that they really hate men telling them what to do in this regard, more than other women. Please don't misunderstand; I feel great sympathy for rape victims, and mothers who are scared. I was almost aborted myself, so this is a very important issue to me. While I wish no one was ever raped, and no children were ever stricken with terrible conditions in the womb, I also know murder is never the right answer.


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11 Apr 2014, 11:50 am

I am 100% pro-choice because I don't uphold human life as more sacred or special than other forms of life. The way I see it, if an individual does not value or is incapable of valuing his/her own life, and taking their life would not result in suffering for them or their loved ones, then it is morally acceptable to take that life. However, I am deeply against gruesome and painful methods of abortion, which is all of them that I know of. So I think abortions should only be allowed before the fetus is capable of feeling pain, which is a huge gray area. I think an exception should be made in cases of rape, but that's also a gray area.



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11 Apr 2014, 12:54 pm

I'm not only pro-choice, but pro-abortion, pro-death sentence and pro-euthanasia.

I believe that life would be so much better and of higher quality if these were common practices.

People are already treated like trash, but for some reason life is oh so sacred. Why would you force someone to life without the love and integrity of family in an orphanage. Why would you allow a life with no future. Maybe some of those people would be just fine, but statistics say that not really.

We should think more about the living than those who aren't really even people yet.



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11 Apr 2014, 2:36 pm

cannotthinkoff wrote:
I'm not only pro-choice, but pro-abortion, pro-death sentence and pro-euthanasia.



"Whatever gets the freeway moving."


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cannotthinkoff
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11 Apr 2014, 6:00 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
cannotthinkoff wrote:
I'm not only pro-choice, but pro-abortion, pro-death sentence and pro-euthanasia.



"Whatever gets the freeway moving."


I am not sure I understand this phrase. Is it sarcastic?