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chris5000
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18 May 2014, 12:21 pm

Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Uh huh. Sure. Thats why Britain had to equip them with military hardware to complete the job, and when certain Israelis decided they wanted EVEN MORE land, the Irgun decided to start attacking British interests in the area.


They needed military equipment because Arab dictatorships were ready to attack any minute. Do us a favour and look other places than European tabloids for your information.


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1- Whether or not those countries are engaging in human rights violations is largely a moot point, since almost no goods come from them. Its much harder not to buy Chinese since almost everything is assembled there. But even then, these countries lack the historical semantics of how Israel was formed. By buying Israeli, you legitimise the idea that it is fine for a large group to come in to a territory with dubious claims, and seize land off an indigenous group that has been there for centuries if not millenia on the back of religous claims. That is the problem.



iran has not been in an offensive war in over 200 years israel has not been around for very long but they have been offensively bombing their neighbors pretty much since the start
So in other words, a boycott of Israel is motivated by entirely selfish reasons. Why no boycott of Venezuela, where journalists mysteriously disappear?

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2-It doesnt make you an anti-semite, particularly considering that a large margin of Jews also echo the same concerns.


Noam Chomsky is not the emperor of the jews.

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That timing was hardly a coincidence.
http://imeu.net/news/article001237.shtml#1


Never claimed it was. It was another reason to give Israel back to the jews, though.

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Yet in secular terms, the Italians have an even stronger claim over Istanbul, since the entire raison d 'etre for Israel is based on the scrawlings of ancient zealots.


There's more than enough genetic and historical evidence for the jews being the original proprietors of Israel. The Romans, the Ottomans, and the Brits kicked them out, though--which there is also historical evidence for.

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I don't know how well read you are on history (not too well based on your posts), but traditionally speaking countries with militaries that are half in power to their rivals are incapable of oppressing rivals equipped with militaries double in power.


Iran has four times as many soldiers (and more likely to actually launch their nuclear weapons). You didn't counter my argument, which just further proves my point.



Tequila
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18 May 2014, 2:31 pm

Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
If we use the premise that Palestine 'never existed' because it never had its own consolidated government prior to the arrival of the zionists, then by the same logic, 'Ireland never existed' either.


Ireland had a culture and several kings and chiefs long before Great Britain had anything to do with it.


We've been involved with Ireland for nearly a thousand years. Going back to the 11th century.



Kurgan
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18 May 2014, 2:47 pm

Tequila wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
If we use the premise that Palestine 'never existed' because it never had its own consolidated government prior to the arrival of the zionists, then by the same logic, 'Ireland never existed' either.


Ireland had a culture and several kings and chiefs long before Great Britain had anything to do with it.


We've been involved with Ireland for nearly a thousand years. Going back to the 11th century.


Ireland has been inhabited since the late stone age, and had large cities already in the 8. century. England invaded it in the 12th century.


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Aristophanes
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18 May 2014, 4:26 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Why is it that people want to boycott Israel, but not Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, or other countries with far worse human rights violations? Does not being jewish automatically cancel out bad deeds?

In this case I have no problem with anyone's religion, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or otherwise-- I have a problem with my government (US) sending money overseas to countries that act in undemocratic ways. I don't like Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians, or any other group that infringes on the basic human rights of others through violence. Same goes for my own country, I refuse to support those in power that use force unnecessarily whether that be Bush's ground wars in Iraq/Afghanistan or Obama's drone wars in Yemen/Somalia.



Kurgan
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18 May 2014, 4:37 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Why is it that people want to boycott Israel, but not Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, or other countries with far worse human rights violations? Does not being jewish automatically cancel out bad deeds?

In this case I have no problem with anyone's religion, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or otherwise-- I have a problem with my government (US) sending money overseas to countries that act in undemocratic ways. I don't like Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians, or any other group that infringes on the basic human rights of others through violence. Same goes for my own country, I refuse to support those in power that use force unnecessarily whether that be Bush's ground wars in Iraq/Afghanistan or Obama's drone wars in Yemen/Somalia.


Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East. A powerful military is what keeps Iran at bay.


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Aristophanes
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18 May 2014, 5:10 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Why is it that people want to boycott Israel, but not Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, or other countries with far worse human rights violations? Does not being jewish automatically cancel out bad deeds?

In this case I have no problem with anyone's religion, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or otherwise-- I have a problem with my government (US) sending money overseas to countries that act in undemocratic ways. I don't like Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians, or any other group that infringes on the basic human rights of others through violence. Same goes for my own country, I refuse to support those in power that use force unnecessarily whether that be Bush's ground wars in Iraq/Afghanistan or Obama's drone wars in Yemen/Somalia.


Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East. A powerful military is what keeps Iran at bay.


First, being a democracy only proves Plato's two thousand year old concerns about the tyranny of uneducated masses. Even democracy can run astray, creating an apartheid system is nothing new to democracy.

Second, keeping Iran at bay from what exactly? Acquiring nuclear weapons? I hate to tell you this but I've been hearing the tired old "Iran is less than two years from acquiring nuclear weapons" argument since 1991. Obviously they're either complete morons and will never figure it out, or the intelligence of their nuclear program is greatly exaggerated. Also, Iran is hated by every other country in the middle east aside from Iraq. If the threat were serious you'd see everyone from Saudi Arabia to Turkey attack them.

Besides, I reject the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" argument when it's clear neither is my friend. It's tedious and outdated. I say let my enemy and the enemy of my enemy fight it out and watch them both fall.



Kurgan
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18 May 2014, 5:51 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
First, being a democracy only proves Plato's two thousand year old concerns about the tyranny of uneducated masses. Even democracy can run astray, creating an apartheid system is nothing new to democracy.


Israel has free elections, a press that's more free than the rest of the middle east, options for homosexual couples to adopt, no death penalty and so on. That sounds democratic to me. Even if you count the human-rights violations on Gaza, Israel is still no worse than most European countries.

Most intelligent people are actually sick of hearing "but, but, Apartheid!" every time you corner someone who hates Israel for no rational reason.

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Second, keeping Iran at bay from what exactly?


Attacking

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Acquiring nuclear weapons?


They already have those.


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Also, Iran is hated by every other country in the middle east aside from Iraq. If the threat were serious you'd see everyone from Saudi Arabia to Turkey attack them.


Iran is allied with Hamas, Syria and Lebanon, to mention a few. The country is also on good terms with Russia, China, and Venezuela, and was even backed by the USSR at one point.

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Besides, I reject the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" argument when it's clear neither is my friend. It's tedious and outdated. I say let my enemy and the enemy of my enemy fight it out and watch them both fall.


If your enemy's enemy is still your enemy, why no boycott of Iran, Yemen or Saudi-Arabia?


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Dox47
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18 May 2014, 6:20 pm

chris5000 wrote:
Image


So, the argument here is that because the Palestinians suck at building rockets compared to the Israelis, they should get a pass on lobbing them at civilians?


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Aristophanes
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18 May 2014, 7:05 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Most intelligent people are actually sick of hearing "but, but, Apartheid!" every time you corner someone who hates Israel for no rational reason.

If your enemy's enemy is still your enemy, why no boycott of Iran, Yemen or Saudi-Arabia?


I'm going to assume English is not your first language and give you a pass since you obviously didn't comprehend my point. I'll make it absolutely clear: I will not support any country, leader, political party, etc. that uses violence against civilians or infringes on another person's natural human right to life.

That includes every group/country you mentioned: Hamas, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, AND Israel. All of them act like rabid dogs. There is no double standard here, none of those groups believe in the sanctity of life, so I refuse to support any of them.

As for a boycott, I say boycott the entire region, Jew, Muslim, Christian, poor countries as well as oil producing countries. I'm sick an tired of that entire region acting like uncivilized barbarians and sucking in the rest of the world to their self created drama.



RunningFox
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18 May 2014, 11:28 pm

We collectively give MORE AID to all of Israels stated and likely potential enemies than we do to Israel. I am not convinced that we should be giving aid to ANY of them in the first place, or anyone else for that matter. We are going BROKE here at home. We complain about not having money for health care while we fund militarys around the world to the tune of billions and billions, more than the entire cost of all the health care here in the U.S.

With all the money we spend on aid we could replace every coal plant with 4 equivalent alternative power plants AND modernize out national power grid. We could pretty much do EVERYTHING we want to on a national level here at home within a few short years with the money we send over seas.



DevilInPgh
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19 May 2014, 11:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:
chris5000 wrote:
Image


So, the argument here is that because the Palestinians suck at building rockets compared to the Israelis, they should get a pass on lobbing them at civilians?


And that, in a nutshell, is why I can't take the "pro-Palestinian" side seriously. Because they think rockets flung in indiscriminate directions meant to KILL are nothing but gnats.



Kurgan
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20 May 2014, 8:49 am

[img][800:784]http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/apartheid-poster.jpg[/img]

Now, how did Hamas treat ethnic minorities, women, political opponents, and homosexuals again? They get a free pass because they're not jews?and because they're allied with several socialist governments.

Image

We've seen this salute before, haven't we?


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thomas81
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20 May 2014, 10:18 am

Try identifying AS a Palestinian within Israel, and see how your rights fare.

The point is not that arabs are being denied rights within Israel, but arabs who refuse to renounce their Palestinian identity.


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Last edited by thomas81 on 20 May 2014, 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stannis
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20 May 2014, 10:29 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0kgG1_6Qn0[/youtube]



Kurgan
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20 May 2014, 3:50 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Try identifying AS a Palestinian within Israel, and see how your rights fare.

The point is not that arabs are being denied rights within Israel, but arabs who refuse to renounce their Palestinian identity.


Try identifying as an Israelite within Palestinian territories, and see how your rights fare.


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