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beneficii
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18 May 2014, 9:30 pm

A Canadian trans woman post-op is extremely tired of this American trans woman pre-op who does not have access to surgery whining about it and expressing her envy of the Canadian. She decides to take it straight to the pre-op: She tells the pre-op to be glad to live in a First World country and to stop worrying so much about surgery.

On the surface, the post-op sounds like she was the voice of reason, but in reality she committed the fallacy of relative privation, dismissing and invalidating the pre-op's suffering at not being able to get surgery, merely on the basis of the existence of greater suffering elsewhere: In reality, she had her revenge on the pre-op. She could now take control of the conversation under the guise of the reasonable one and shunt the annoying pissant pre-op off.

And pain, bitterness, and envy will continue to spread throughout the entire trans community, increasing its toxicity to its members ever more.

The trans community is not a healthy place for its members. Members must work alone and know that just because something good happened to somebody else, that doesn't mean the same good thing is going to happen for you.


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beneficii
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18 May 2014, 9:57 pm

The post-op's motive for revenge can be explored further. When the pre-op showed her envy of the post-op having to the surgery, the post-op felt invalidated and objectified herself. It was as though her entire life was being measured by the fact she had surgery; the pains and sufferings which she suffered for other things in her life are ignored: the death of her entire family at age 10, her adoptive grandparents who completely rejected her when she transition, and having to put up with pissants like this pre-op. She is angry and frightened by this envy and objectification and complete focus on a singular subject, so she desires to have her revenge and oh boy! is it sweet!

Of course, the post-op just thinks she's being reasonable when she's really not, when she says that the pre-op's suffering doesn't really matter because there is greater suffering elsewhere (cf. fallacy of relative privation). Her revenge is a subconscious operation, designed to send off the pre-op's objectification of her.

Curse the trans community we are forced to inhabit!


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19 May 2014, 2:43 am

Soooo, what you're saying is:

1. Move to Canada
2. ???
3. Profit!

amIright?


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Prism
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20 May 2014, 10:28 pm

I'd have to say beneficii, your perspectives seem to be more in-line with mine on this forum. I'm kinda lucky though, like I mentioned before due to having one person to talk about this on deviantart. It's a shame people often dismiss people's inner sufferings and say they should be grateful to not be suffering more basically.


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beneficii
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21 May 2014, 6:37 pm

Prism wrote:
I'd have to say beneficii, your perspectives seem to be more in-line with mine on this forum. I'm kinda lucky though, like I mentioned before due to having one person to talk about this on deviantart. It's a shame people often dismiss people's inner sufferings and say they should be grateful to not be suffering more basically.


Yup. And I pray that every single post-op trans woman who dismisses the suffering of a pre-op because of lack of access to surgery develops a fistula that forces the permanent sealing shut of her neovagina. Maybe then they will remember when they, too, suffered.

Seriously, we need to take to task every post-op POS that does this crap. They need to be made the black sheep of the trans community. If they were able to pay for surgery themselves and live in the United States, one way to repent for this crap for them would be to make a $20k donation to the Jim Collins Foundation.

I shall name one Canadian post-op who pulled this s**t with me: PhazonZim on Reddit. However, I had hurt her feelings and made her feel invalidated, so she had her revenge by saying that I should just be glad to already by on hormones, to live in a first-world country, etc., and used the ableist term 'moron'. I can't find it anymore, perhaps because of its age, but that is what she said. Her revenge was the invalidation of my suffering.

PhazonZim is exactly that kind of post-op POS that I'm talking about. May she develop a vaginorectal fistula that ruins her neovagina, so she can remember the suffering she felt that I feel I am going to be stuck feeling. Unfortunately, even so, with no phallus, her suffering would still not be as great as mine.


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MarthaCannary
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22 May 2014, 2:07 am

beneficii wrote:
Prism wrote:
I'd have to say beneficii, your perspectives seem to be more in-line with mine on this forum. I'm kinda lucky though, like I mentioned before due to having one person to talk about this on deviantart. It's a shame people often dismiss people's inner sufferings and say they should be grateful to not be suffering more basically.


Yup. And I pray that every single post-op trans woman who dismisses the suffering of a pre-op because of lack of access to surgery develops a fistula that forces the permanent sealing shut of her neovagina. Maybe then they will remember when they, too, suffered.

Seriously, we need to take to task every post-op POS that does this crap. They need to be made the black sheep of the trans community. If they were able to pay for surgery themselves and live in the United States, one way to repent for this crap for them would be to make a $20k donation to the Jim Collins Foundation.

I shall name one Canadian post-op who pulled this sh** with me: PhazonZim on Reddit. However, I had hurt her feelings and made her feel invalidated, so she had her revenge by saying that I should just be glad to already by on hormones, to live in a first-world country, etc., and used the ableist term 'moron'. I can't find it anymore, perhaps because of its age, but that is what she said. Her revenge was the invalidation of my suffering.

PhazonZim is exactly that kind of post-op POS that I'm talking about. May she develop a vaginorectal fistula that ruins her neovagina, so she can remember the suffering she felt that I feel I am going to be stuck feeling. Unfortunately, even so, with no phallus, her suffering would still not be as great as mine.



To think someone would have so much hate and jealousy over another individual to wish that kind of pain and suffering on them. Very telling.

The entitlement you are showing is scary. Government funds might be offered in some countries. You do not live in one of those countries. You are suggesting, sorry, demanding that folks with more means than you, should just pony up so you can have a shiny new vajayjay of your very own? In the United States?... Good luck with that. I guess you have failed to notice that the US economy is in worse shape than the Great Depression. People from all walks of life are living in tent cities in every single state. Millions of American children are going hungry and homeless. Walmart is passing out pamphlets on how to apply for welfare to cover your living expenses while you work for them... The American middle class is being gutted. People are taking care of their loved ones. They have their own health care concerns.

They could care less about offering alms to the good saint Free-Vajayjay.

Everyone who goes through transition does so by almost any means. Having temper tantrums and wishing ill will upon others will not get you very far in your quest. A job and a savings account might be a better option.

Oh News Flash: Most trans folks are broke. They are broke because they can only get garbage jobs were they are generally abused and made fun of. They work long hours. Live in crappy apartments. Drive crappy cars. All the while their savings account grows until they can afford to pay for their surgeries. Then they do their best to blend in and try to live as happy a life as can be managed.

The ones that have money, do not care about you at all. You are not even on their radar, not even a blip. They are up there with the 1%. They use money, to make more money, and buy lawyers.

I know it sucks, I know you want it all to happen right away. That just is not in the cards and waiting on someone else to pay for it is just silly. You will be old and saggy by the time someone comes around with a boatload of free vajayjay money.

The surgery is not that expensive. Comparatively it is much cheaper than the guys surgery. If you want it bad enough you will do what it takes to save enough. If you happen to find another avenue of funding your savings can be used for other things.

But you do not want to hear any of this. You just want to be mad at the world and to take it out on post ops.

Well, I was going to chat you up about surgery. But after all this, I'll take a pass. Jealousy, Hate and Entitlement are traits I tend to avoid.


Feel free to hate me, I was born in Canada. :roll: :wink:

P.S.

That whole "getting surgery paid for in Canada" thing.... Totally hit or miss. Only available in a couple of provinces, even then they tend to cut funding every couple of years until they are dragged into court and shown that it costs more for sad trans pre-op people than it does for happy post-op people.

I personally dealt with having funding cut in two provinces. Had a few friends kill themselves over it both times. So I went through the "real life test" three times. The third province paid for it but by that time I had saved up just about what I needed to pay for it myself. Thankfully I did not have to spend that savings. I got to spend some on myself instead.

I personally feel like American health care is a joke. It fails so many people. Canadian health care is not much better and they are trying to make it just like American health care. If I had my way everyone would be health and happy all the time.


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beneficii
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22 May 2014, 4:11 am

MarthaCannary wrote:
To think someone would have so much hate and jealousy over another individual to wish that kind of pain and suffering on them. Very telling.


Very telling that that person was just as happy to leave me wallowing in mine.

Quote:
The entitlement you are showing is scary. Government funds might be offered in some countries. You do not live in one of those countries


I know that. That is something I have brooded on for years. Here's the thing: I cannot get the surgery by myself. I can only do so much to help myself and it is insufficient in this economy, in my situation, with my mental health that has been declining over the past year and a half because of not being able to get surgery. My mind has been filled with black thoughts, angry thoughts, thoughts of nuclear war, destruction, the final ruination of this horrible country.

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I guess you have failed to notice that the US economy is in worse shape than the Great Depression. People from all walks of life are living in tent cities in every single state.


This is false.

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Everyone who goes through transition does so by almost any means. Having temper tantrums and wishing ill will upon others will not get you very far in your quest. A job and a savings account might be a better option.


I do have a job and a savings account. Unfortunately, I am getting burnt out, I am angry, and my own therapist has sought to get me to express my anger in my sessions with him, by telling me how hard things are made. You see. My employer's health plan might just cover SRS, because it is likely there is no explicit exclusion (and it's been covering my hormones and endo office visits and labwork, even with the ICD-9 CM code 302.85 GID being submitted). I did everything right, got the doctors' letters, even got a letter from my endo, filled out the paperwork with Dr. Bowers, I've been living full-time for more than 2 years, and I've been on hormones for years. However, the anxiety of waiting for the insurance decision interfered with my concentration, so I had to take intermediate FMLA from work. Then it was disallowed on April 24, and I have hardly been back to work since, still on FMLA.

The lawyer with the TLDEF I've been working with says he wants to get a law firm involved as he thinks I could still win coverage for SRS (in return for my name, face, and story appearing on a TLDEF press release were we to win), but I told him to hold off on committing resources for now as I might lose this job. My therapist did praise me for my forthrightness, but that lawyer is probably starting to get cold feet now. Since April 24, I've basically lost it. I cannot handle this process. My therapist says my affect has gone flat and my concentration has become weaker, and I've noticed a tendency to have anger outbursts more often in sessions, cussing and everything--he threatened to end the session at one point because of my cussing. People have begun to tell me I often seem out of it. My psychiatrist is trying to basically pull me back from the brink with medication, including using an antipsychotic (and I read my psychiatrist's blog; he is very reluctant to prescribe that type of drug except in cases of clear psychosis and I'm not psychotic).

So I have been trying to do the right things, but I break down under this stress. One positive sign is that were I eligible for disability, it would be SSDI (the better one) rather than SSI that I could get, meaning after 2 years I would get on Medicare. There may yet be hope with Medicare:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/hhs-e ... eassignmen

http://www.hhs.gov/dab/decisions/dabdec ... cd1403.pdf

Quote:
Oh News Flash: Most trans folks are broke. They are broke because they can only get garbage jobs were they are generally abused and made fun of. They work long hours. Live in crappy apartments. Drive crappy cars. All the while their savings account grows until they can afford to pay for their surgeries. Then they do their best to blend in and try to live as happy a life as can be managed.


Those kinds of jobs I have repeatedly shown myself I cannot do. Retail, waitressing, cashier, any job that requires switching between multiple modes overloads me; I've tried repeatedly to do these jobs but have always failed. My current job is actually not that bad, but I found that I could never tolerate working more than 40 hours, and as my mental health has declined and my FMLA usage has gone up and my savings first being used for E3K, I've been losing it.

Quote:
The ones that have money, do not care about you at all. You are not even on their radar, not even a blip. They are up there with the 1%. They use money, to make more money, and buy lawyers.


And I curse every one of them. And it isn't just about me, but others, as well.

Quote:
The surgery is not that expensive. Comparatively it is much cheaper than the guys surgery. If you want it bad enough you will do what it takes to save enough. If you happen to find another avenue of funding your savings can be used for other things.


Only unwittingly. My mood improved somewhat last year when I found I could realistically plunder my retirement savings accounts. The problem with saving while knowing you're saving is the anxiety and the obsessiveness that comes with it; it drives me crazy. I guess, though, it's different for most people. This was all the more reason why external help is so important for me.

Quote:
But you do not want to hear any of this. You just want to be mad at the world and to take it out on post ops.


Actually, I've heard it millions of times and it is getting old. And I'm tired of the same-old same-old bootstrap mentality from post-ops, talking down to pre-ops. It's really effing old. I don't see you guys as being supportive at all, but just a bunch of self-righteous douchebags. I feel that post-ops have abandoned their community and have zero concern for its welfare. It's post-ops that keep getting lost to follow-up (supposedly because they couldn't be bothered to do the follow-up) that has allowed opponents of coverage to cast doubt on the effectiveness of the surgery, like with the University of Birmingham study back in 2004.

Quote:
Well, I was going to chat you up about surgery. But after all this, I'll take a pass. Jealousy, Hate and Entitlement are traits I tend to avoid.


What makes you think I would have wanted to be chatted up about surgery? I've read tons of surgery stories and felt the envy. The envy at times is painful, so lately I've been avoiding such stories. So do not trouble to say were I a good little pre-op accepting my place in the world that we would have had this wonderful reciprocal conversation about surgery.

Also, what's wrong with entitlement? If you are entitled to something, then you should press for it.

Quote:
That whole "getting surgery paid for in Canada" thing.... Totally hit or miss. Only available in a couple of provinces, even then they tend to cut funding every couple of years until they are dragged into court and shown that it costs more for sad trans pre-op people than it does for happy post-op people.


Wrong. Most provinces cover it and the ones that do cover 95% of the Canadian population. Granted, it would suck to have to go through the process in Ontario because they send you to that place with Blanchard.

BTW, my company has also reaped the consequences of not expressly covering SRS--my employer's health insurance plan is self-funded, meaning they take on full liability for payment of claims. They have spent more than $10,000 on 3 mental hospital stays just to get me back to my normal miserable state because of a suicide attempt and an attempt to blind myself, because I felt so hopeless about everything. I also had the fun of staying with the men. As my therapist would tell you, I would not have had any of those hospital stays if the company expressly covered SRS, as the initial decompensation would not have occurred (it started in October 2012 with panic attacks turning into rage attacks), having been triggered by believing I could not access SRS. In addition, my company has reaped the consequences of my absence that has now lasted almost a month because the lack of express coverage gives the insurance company wiggle room to deny it and hope I go away. My shift tends to have me working alone a lot of the time, so my department has had to pay a lot of overtime to my co-workers to cover my shifts. My FMLA is running out, so I might soon be without a job, so indeed I would have gone away. I would go on disability if I lost my job.

It has been a bitter loss for my supervisor, who has praised me many times for things.

Right now, I am moving in and out of a state where I cannot feel what it is that I feel. Why did I write such a long response to you? I do not understand.

Tell me. Why did you write such a long post to me? Were you perhaps concerned about the possibility of my including you in the group of post-ops I would like to have to deal with fistulas and loss of the neovagina and wanted to try to shut down that line of thinking?


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beneficii
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22 May 2014, 3:10 pm

And just so I am not accused of being unrealistic, I know that mentally, I am damaged goods. SRS will not be able to undo the damage. It would only give me peace finally and help stop more damage. All these years of brooding over the lack of coverage of SRS has ruined my mind. I will never be able to attain intimacy with another person and already in my life I am entering a long twilight.

If only I had lived in a country that covered SRS. My mental state was so much better in my early 20s, with no need to see a mental health professional. If I just felt then that I could transition safely, get on hormones, and get surgery, and was actually able to do so, then this damage, which has cost my employer a lot of money, has caused my parents grief, and will cost society, would never have happened. It's just like Mikhail Ramendik said in a comment on sexnotgender.com, late teens, early twenties is the best time for transition to help you get into society.

I have a biting sense of loss that I was denied that and for that I hate this country, I hate the attitudes of the post-ops towards me, and at times I wish for great destruction.

It was circumstance that put me into this and the damage inflicted cannot be healed by anything. SRS will only help me attain peace and forestall further damage. That I understand.


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beneficii
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22 May 2014, 4:06 pm

Quote:
The surgery is not that expensive. Comparatively it is much cheaper than the guys surgery. If you want it bad enough you will do what it takes to save enough. If you happen to find another avenue of funding your savings can be used for other things.


My psychiatrist today was highly critical of the bold, saying it fails to take into account individual factors such as impairments and the like and that it seems to be for the purpose of establishing the superiority of the post-op over the pre-op who is stuck (what we know as the "trannier than thou" thing), and he thinks it a shame when I told him that this view is very common amongst post-ops, that there is such antagonism towards pre-ops who are stuck. (And this was after I told him of my wish that such post-ops suffer fistulas that ruin their neovaginas.)

IMO personally, this view being common amongst post-ops is among the reasons why things are still so shitty for the trans community, which is toxic poison.

Out of spite, I told my psychiatrist that the entire trans community, pre-op, non-op, post-op, or whatever, (me included) just needs to be packed like sausages on trains leading to a death camp that will exterminate our population in gas chambers. He was a bit shocked, but I told him I was serious. I f*****g hate this community.

Either way, if and when I do finally get post-op, I imagine that I would have much greater appreciation of the suffering that necessitated it and the results than most post-ops, especially Martha Cannary here who seems to have forgotten what the suffering was like as evidenced by her total lack of expressed empathy for pre-ops.


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23 May 2014, 4:30 am

Or, perhaps, not everyone experience gentital dysphoria the same way. Maybe you're an outlier, and most transwomen don't find the operation to be as essential - and so can't understand where you're coming from, because they managed fine as pre-ops for several years before they could get the operation.


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beneficii
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23 May 2014, 8:24 am

Magneto wrote:
Or, perhaps, not everyone experience gentital dysphoria the same way. Maybe you're an outlier, and most transwomen don't find the operation to be as essential - and so can't understand where you're coming from, because they managed fine as pre-ops for several years before they could get the operation.


Even if true, that doesn't mean people are going to come and rush to help me. I've already been marked the provocative cynic and have been told "if I want it bad enough I'll manage to save up enough money for it," which isn't exactly true, as I'm horrible at saving, except unwittingly (i.e. my retirement accounts). Maybe I should quit my job, empty my retirement accounts, use my credit card to buy a plane ticket, and head on over to Thailand.

EDIT: I know I'd never be successful as this in raising money from others, as I discussed with a trans man on another forum:

http://www.gofundme.com/dori-srs

At most, I'd raise a few hundred, making the whole enterprise a waste of time. I'd also see it as a shame, because you set out to raise thousands but came back with only hundreds. It's like it'd have been better that you never did it in the first place.


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24 May 2014, 5:38 pm

"For post-op women only" says a survey. Just reading that is painful.


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24 May 2014, 8:05 pm

I just read all of the rest of the posts in this thread. I'm not going to address any points or refute/dispute any logic or reasoning.

Rather, I feel like pointing out what I've done financially over the last several months. Rewind to a few years ago and I lived in a friends house while it was under massive renovations, traded my labour for room & board, and made about $150/month doing what I could here and there. I was functioning so low that I couldn't maintain a job and work/earn etc. Then, through a series of learning steps I figured out what was causing my adhd/anxiety/depression/ocd/asd/tourettes symptoms & my brain to go haywire and how to treat it. I've outlined that in the link in my signature when I shared it here on WP months ago. Financially, a busted business partnership helped result in some serious stress and personal bankruptcy. I filed for bankruptcy on December 21st 2012 (new beginnings day! by chance.) & 9 months later it discharged on my birthday last September. Last September I had a few hundred dollars to my name. I've since been functioning higher/better than ever in my life and have been working full time+, paid for a lot of things I had to pay for (several thousand dollars), and have managed to accumulate about $10k in cash & stocks to date by making saving/investing a huge priority on my relatively meagre income. By the time September rolls around again and it's been an entire year, I'm guesstimating I'll be up $20K-ish, depending on a number of factors. From functioning so low that I could barely manage to earn $150/month to looking forward to that kind of progress in a single calendar year, I'd say I'm doing pretty well - and look forward to a more prosperous, abundant, financially free future.

I'm not stating these things to boast. To the contrary, it's been my experience that health is wealth & once you obtain the former the latter begins to fall into place automatically. If your diagnosis is of ASD (or any of the laundry list of symptoms I was experiencing) then I implore you to read the link in my sig and give it some consideration. What IF you're able to improve your mental health and mindset, as well as capacity to earn and save money etc by following my lead and doing as I've done? IMO it's worth some consideration and a shot if you're willing to take it. Then it might only be a few short years until you have the cash to get what you want.

Do feel free to PM me about it if you like.


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24 May 2014, 10:26 pm

My problem isn't diet. It's that I still have a penis and not a vagina yet.


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25 May 2014, 12:12 am

beneficii wrote:
My problem isn't diet. It's that I still have a penis and not a vagina yet.



I'd say your problem is more your perception of yourself and your situation vs. actual genitalia of the moment.

I say this because not everyone in your situation is as unhappy as you are. This is because they're able to perceive themselves and their situation differently. Some are genuinely happy, others not so much, but many are able to function at a level in life that allows them keep on moving forward towards their goals, work & earn the money they need to get what they want etc.

And it's been my experience that perceptions can be dramatically improved via diet & physical health.


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