We are evolved

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Shadi2
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08 Jun 2014, 3:52 pm

KB8CWB wrote:

I don't look upon our condition so much as being defective then just born different. It does then to make us hyper-focused on particular areas of interest. It could be spirituality, science, technology, philosophy, you name it. We are ALL part of a society with differing talents that should be working together to better the whole of society. In ages past, these special people with their special talents be it artists or the holy man on the mountain all played a part and the rest of society recognized that and supported them. If you look closely at what history says, many of these "super-talented" individuals were way beyond anything else anyone was doing in that very particular niche that they occupied. It was appreciated and the holy man living alone in the mountain was given food, clothing, etc in return for his teachings. The artists, scientists, etc were no different. Reading further most couldn't survive on their own without help of the rest of society but they gave in return the fruits of their specialties.

So I think our condition is NOT so much a defect but a normal part of humanity. It is within the variability of our species and our kind have been here since humans began roaming the earth. Now we have a label and they call us Autistic, so what? I believe we have played our part in society as a whole and help to advance humanity to rise above that of the rest of the mammals on this planet. I do NOT think it is a genetic defect, just a variable the pops up and is encoded into the genetics.

Our biggest problem in this day and age is that since we don't fit the "mold" of the modern world we are shunned and treated as though we are defective. Unlike ages past where society accepted and saw the value today we are just cast aside as being non-productive burdens on the rest of society.

You make a lot of good points KB. And I especially agree with the ones I quoted. That's why I always say that Autism is a whole lot more than the diagnosis of Autism. It didn't even have a name in the past, now it is considered a "defect".

And we have more brain cells than the average NT ... http://www.livescience.com/44409-autism ... birth.html

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Acedia
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08 Jun 2014, 6:48 pm

Shadi2 wrote:

It's not considered a defect, you have a strange way of interpreting disability. It's a developmental disability and there's nothing wrong with that.

edit**

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IndigoAutism
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08 Jun 2014, 7:13 pm

If a person from 300 years in the future stepped in your shoes he would have many difficulties and struggles to face. Society would call him some form of disabled.

It's folly to assume the autistic individual is superior and the NT is a mongoloid, that is the preface to eugenics merely we have a case of the dog chasing its own tail. Giordano Bruno was burned Galileo, Einstein, Telsa each said to be mad and their crazy ideas and beliefs impossible yet look how the world has changes.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.? -Einstein

It's no query some hide in the shelter of societies labels, but never doubt the fact how the autistic individual thinks and processes information is the direction humanity is going. The world has been conquered their is no where you can run on this planet. Human connection is an evolutionary trait of attachment to promote survivability. Now the predominant trait of survivability is to bring awareness to self which the autistic individual excels at.

It is important to recognize the gift we bring this world and focus on creating a world of covenant understanding such as quantum physics there are no absolute truths only
probabilities

"No one person has the answers, but we can solve the solution together."
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08 Jun 2014, 7:45 pm

IndigoAutism wrote:

I don't see how humanity is going in the direction of how autistic individuals think and process information per say....but I certainly feel like it takes all kinds of different people to create societies and keep humanity going. People with autism can perceive things differently than neurotypicals, many people with mental problems and drug abuse problems have created beautiful music, some people are physically strong and have a lot of stamina, some people are better at acedemics, some people are great at reading, some suck at math....maybe the point of humanity is we all have our strengths and weaknesses and therefore have to work together to make the most of it as idealistic as that might sound.

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Pobbles
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08 Jun 2014, 8:07 pm

Evolution usually involves some advantage that increases the likelihood of reproduction.

Somebody PM me when NTs become a minority group, then we can talk evolution.

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Sweetleaf
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08 Jun 2014, 8:16 pm

Pobbles wrote:

Evolution usually involves some advantage that increases the likelihood of reproduction.

Somebody PM me when NTs become a minority group, then we can talk evolution.

That is true regardless of if someone has some special gift or ability, as far as evolution is concerned its all about survival...which genetics randomly survive and which die off.

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Si_82
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08 Jun 2014, 8:20 pm

Of all the many many disturbing errors and delusions apparent in the OP, I want to focus on the science of evolution as this is something that these kind of posts misunderstand time and time again.

Evolution is something that happens to an entire species over thousands and millions of years. Natural selection favours genetic mutations which allow greater rates of reproduction and survival.

What evolution is not is sporadic neurological conditions causing the person to be less likely to find a mate and reproduce that their neurotypical counterpart. If anything I am a little surprised that evolution has not removed autistic genetic markers from the species' DNA.

However you look at it though, autism is not evolution, sorry.

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Sweetleaf
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08 Jun 2014, 8:44 pm

Si_82 wrote:

Well obviously people with autism are not incapable of having sex and reproducing....it can however be harder to find a relationship in which to do that, but when they do its likely the genes get passed on....also sometimes autism could likely be caused by random genetic mutation which does not necessarily require either parent to have autism genes. For instance people with the genetic condition that makes them much smaller(not sure what the politically correct term is) sometimes have normal sized children who for whatever reason did not receive those genetics.

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Shadi2
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08 Jun 2014, 8:47 pm

Acedia wrote:

Shadi2 wrote:

It's not considered a defect, you have a strange way of interpreting disability. It's a developmental disability and there's nothing wrong with that.

edit**

---

I used the same word he did, that's why I used quotation marks. And I already said that I don't see Autism as a disability, but as a difference, only some traits are disabling, not autism as a whole.

Even among the traits that are disabling, some of them are considered disabilities or impairments only from a NT world point of view. Also, impaired circuits in an autistic brain "provoke" the creation or improvement of other "circuits", which then become a gift or special talent (more or less obvious to others). A bit like a blind man who's sense of hearing becomes more acute, or a deaf person who's visual sense becomes more acute, etc. Not to mention "circuits" that are sometimes joined when they normallly wouldn't be, and become an even more amazing gift or talent (as for Daniel Tammet for example).

But I don't think NTs are inferior, nor AS superior, I simply think that diversity is a good thing, and is important for our evolution. I also strongly believe that many of the most amazing discoveries and inventions were made by people who had at least a certain degree of Autism (diagnosed or not) and/or a difference in their brains, i.e. circuits in their brain that was different from the general population, the same way as Temple Grandin, because she is not only intelligent but has hyper developed "circuits" in her visual cortex and was able to see and understand things that a normal NT brain couldn't figure out nor understand.

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Last edited by Shadi2 on 08 Jun 2014, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wblastyn
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08 Jun 2014, 9:12 pm

Shadi2 wrote:

Having more brain cells isn't necessarily a good thing. The brain eliminates neurons during development via synaptic pruning. It's believed to result in brain regions becoming more specialised and, therefore, more efficient.

There's no such thing as "more evolved". Humans aren't more evolved than other animals, we just evolved to fit different niches. Autistics aren't more evolved than NT's, we're just different because our brains didn't develop normally. In some ways it has benefits, such as our intense focus, attention to detail, etc but also has many debilitating downsides - social isolation, executive dysfunction (making day to day living difficult) and so on.

I think it's more useful for us to accept AS as a disability and find ways to cope with it, rather than thinking "I'm more evolved so I don't need to change anything!"

Shadi2
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08 Jun 2014, 9:32 pm

wblastyn wrote:

I agree with the 3rd sentence. But I don't know about the first one, science is not advanced enough to understand the exact use of each circuit, only the general use of different areas in the brain.

Quote:

There's no such thing as "more evolved". Humans aren't more evolved than other animals, we just evolved to fit different niches.

I agree.

Quote:

Autistics aren't more evolved than NT's, we're just different because our brains didn't develop normally. In some ways it has benefits, such as our intense focus, attention to detail, etc but also has many debilitating downsides - social isolation, executive dysfunction (making day to day living difficult) and so on.

I agree, and I never said that NTs were less evolved. And I agree with the 2nd sentence as well, I never denied this. However, some (not all) of the traits that are considered disabling, are only so from a NT's point of view.

Quote:

I think it's more useful for us to accept AS as a disability and find ways to cope with it, rather than thinking "I'm more evolved so I don't need to change anything!"

I never said that either (i.e. more evolved), I said that Autism is not a disability as a whole, but that only some traits can be actually disabling, while others are not.

To be clear (or at least I am trying to be): I agree with the official diagnosis of Autism, because some traits can indeed be disabling, and because it allows people to get help that is needed, what I disagree on is to "unofficially" define the whole person as "disabled", or to "unofficially" define Autism as a disability, as a whole.

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Norny
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08 Jun 2014, 11:15 pm

Shadi2 wrote:

To be clear (or at least I am trying to be): I agree with the official diagnosis of Autism, because some traits can indeed be disabling, and because it allows people to get help that is needed, what I disagree on is to "unofficially" define the whole person as "disabled", or to "unofficially" define Autism as a disability, as a whole.

While I see your point, the problem with this is that most people on the spectrum are disabled 'as a whole'. Even without learning disability, day to day functioning is hampered by the sensory issues, executive dysfunction etc. If you define autism as not being a disability in that way, then essentially all other disabling conditions would have to follow the same path.

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Shadi2
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08 Jun 2014, 11:58 pm

Norny wrote:

Shadi2 wrote:

I don't think you actually understand my point. There is many traits that are not actually disabling, depending on severity, and the nature of the trait. Autism is a whole lot more than the diagnosis of Autism, it is a lot more than the disabilities associated with Autism. There is also certain traits that can actually become a special talent and ability, but sometimes you might need the right person to realise and/or discover this (unless it is very obvious). They are not disabled "as a whole", they are not only the sum of their disabilities, there is many things that they are able to do, but they may have some disabilities that might makes some things difficult.

To me an autistic person (which includes my son and myself) is not a disabled person, it is a full fledged person just like any other human being, who has some impairments, but also many abilities and talents, just like anyone else. I don't define my son (nor anyone else) by his disabilities, but as a whole person, with some impairments but also many talents and qualities.

As I mentioned tho, I do agree with the official definition, because it allows people to get help when it is needed. But on a personal level tho, no, I don't define autism as a disability as a whole, only some traits are disabling.

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KB8CWB
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09 Jun 2014, 12:17 am

Norny wrote:

Shadi2 wrote:

Most of the arguments here are over semantics. Whatever way you wish to describe someone, fine that is your choice.

I have one question for you Norny. Do individuals with Autism contribute to society in any way or are they just a drain on resources and hampering the rest of humanity? Putting it a different way, do they ever contribute to society at all? I am interested to hear your thoughts on this. And I am speaking generally as a whole the entire Autistic community.

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09 Jun 2014, 12:47 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Exactly! I meant that it is easy to make a compelling case for the social difficulties present in ASDs to bring a net disadvantage in terms of natural selection (finding a relationship and subsequently procreating) when compared to those without ASD.

Also, strictly speaking, my understanding was that it was actually unikely ASD would be inherited (somewhere in the region of 25% from one ASD parent). So, not a genetic trait we would expect to flourish quickly.

Its certainly not a foregone conclusion that ASD would be as prevalent as it is given those facts alone - and would seem to cement the case against it being subject to increase by natural selection at any rate.

TLDR: Humans are NOT evolving into an autistic species!

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Norny
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09 Jun 2014, 3:36 am

Shadi2 wrote:

You're saying that there can be good things that autistic individuals possess, and I agree, of course they can. Not all autistic individuals have special talents or abilities (assuming you mean something non-NT like), but may have many abilities equal to an NT counterpart. I'm not arguing against autistic strengths and I acknowledge them, but in terms of evolution I don't really see how the individual could not be considered disabled. I consider it analogous to suggesting a person with a hereditary condition causing 1 missing limb or something is not wholly disabled, when regardless of how good they may be at using their arms to throw, they will never be able to run properly. From my point of view, you're assuming a very technical standpoint (the person's arms still work, therefore they aren't fully disabled), while I view it in a more holistic way I suppose.

Looking at my post, it looks as if I passed on my opinion as fact, which is my bad. I only meant to contribute my thoughts to the discussion.

Shadi2 wrote:

To me an autistic person (which includes my son and myself) is not a disabled person, it is a full fledged person just like any other human being, who has some impairments, but also many abilities and talents, just like anyone else. I don't define my son (nor anyone else) by his disabilities, but as a whole person, with some impairments but also many talents and qualities.

As I mentioned tho, I do agree with the official definition, because it allows people to get help when it is needed. But on a personal level tho, no, I don't define autism as a disability as a whole, only some traits are disabling.

This makes sense to me, why you would view it that way.

KB8CWB wrote:

Norny wrote:

Shadi2 wrote:

It is an argument over semantics. I haven't slept in over 24 hours so I just spewed out my thoughts at the time.

There are many that contribute to society, and many that don't (just as there are NTs). I don't really have anything else to say about that.

Have I done something wrong? >.>

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