My issues with the manosphere and red-pill-ism.

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SeigiCitadel24
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09 Jun 2014, 1:17 am

Hey everyone. It's been a long while since I have been on here, approximately more than 1 and a half years to be exact. Hahaha. Anyway, to the point of this topic.

During the timeskip, my life has gone through some ups and downs. Had a part-time job for 9 months at a restaurant, struggling to move on from my ex and now currently studying to get into university. But what really bugs me off is most of the men on the internet posting stuff on the internet on how to be a 'man'. By what I have seen it's always about machismo and sex.

Now speaking as a soon-to-be 24'er Aspergian I love sex, but I am not the type who likes to brag on about how many women I have slept with. Why is it that the manosphere are so obsessed with women and that they think they know it all (aka red pill)?

To be honest, I really do not understand why so many guys fall for this crap. Just because our ancestors were cavemen does not mean it ought to be the way of life for each and every man alive. I myself am sort of a lost soul, had a rough childhood and... well, I am kind of carving my own path to being a man. In my opinion the manosphere is nothing more than a chauvinistic worldview. Sure there may be dating advice, but to me that shows like men are babies and need t be spoonfed.

What are your thoughts on the manosphere?



skibum
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09 Jun 2014, 4:13 am

I think "manoshpere" is stupid and you need to define yourself as is comfortable and right for you.


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Marcia
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09 Jun 2014, 6:38 am

I have no idea what the manosphere is, or this red pill you're talking about.



Adamantium
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09 Jun 2014, 7:31 am

The internet is a nearly infinite well of crap.

For any given topic, there is a huge amount of ridiculous nonsense about it:The world is really flat, but also hollow because the nazi-alien demonic hybrids have their bases in there and are waiting to emerge when the stars are right and the masons build the final piece of the portal generator they have been slowly erecting around the globe. If you take enough psychoactive compounds, you can perceive this directly and are then sensitized to the constant stream of information about these plots and conspiracies embedded in our popular culture. And so on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on....

There are marriage guides that tell women how to train their husbands like a dog and marriage guides that tell husbands to beat their wives into godly submission. There is every imaginable strain of bs about masculinity, femininity, and all points between.

You can't let this preposterous maelstrom of misinformation get to you. Most people don't agree with whatever nonsense has drawn your attention and it really isn't worth the energy you put into firing neurons to contemplate these cultural excretions.

Unless that's your thing, of course--in that case, it's a rich smorgasbord, enjoy. If you get tired of railing against the manosphere (not actually a thriving meme, thank goodness) there is an inexhaustible supply of wrong-headed nonsense you can be irritated by next.

Or you can get on with your own thing and just look at this stuff for a laugh every now and again.



timf
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09 Jun 2014, 9:25 am

Quote:
What are your thoughts on the manosphere?


Here is something from a web site that addresses this issue;

In the early part of the twentieth century in the United States history records that women won the right to vote. It would be more accurate to say that men lost the right to represent their families. The social assault on men has been continuous since then. The idea of the "red pill" derived from the movie The Matrix, represents an awakening. It is an awakening from an enforced slumber so it is not surprising that there is some resentment associated with this awakening.

This is summarized on one MGTOW (men going their own way) web site as;

One can argue that:
- Our world is a corporate plantation and men are its primary slaves.
- You have unwittingly been programmed since birth to become a slave.
- A wife, a mortgage and kids almost always guarantees you a life of servitude.
- Men do not innately owe to women or society anything, but they still end up as slaves in sexless marriages with moody wives.
- The illusion of marriage from prior generations lures men into bondage.

But do not despair: "waking up" is the key to your freedom.



This is eerily like the financial awakening that happens when people embrace the philosophy of libertarianism. In both awakenings people are presented with an elevated perspective of self as the remedy for having been exploited.

Most people see in the presentation of history an uninterrupted progression of technology, social evolution, and material prosperity. This social inertia tends to validate the world system (matrix). However, there are those who "awake" and eager for freedom. The problem is that the "freedom" of self-indulgence brings just another form of slavery.

Most everything in the "manosphere" is reactionary. Some of the bitterness can be understood a little if you see a guy who has worked his whole life only to find that his wife takes his children away from him and forces him to pay for her to live with a boyfriend who his children call "daddy".

I knew a woman who had been the victim of incest. She went to an incest support group and found most of the members were lesbian. This creeped her out more that the issues she was trying to deal with. This is a little similar to the MGTOW (manoshpere) world. Real healing happens with truth. I believe that any legitimate search for truth will bring a person to Jesus. The problem is that so many things get in the way (including churches) that a "red pill" may only bring anger and resentment instead of healing and growth.



Cornflake
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10 Jun 2014, 3:03 am

[Moved from General Autism Discussion to Love and Dating]


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SeigiCitadel24
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11 Jun 2014, 4:33 am

@ Cornflake, thanks. Didn't know where to post it so I thought General Discussion would do.

@ timf, even though I am an atheist (with an interest in Buddhism), your post does have a silver lining. These men, divorced or not, claim to be content with their single life. Now I have nothing against the single life as I am one myself but I don't go on ranting about how great it is to be one. It just shows a lack of satisfaction with oneself, more or less.

@ Adamantium, I can not agree more. The internet may have some reliable information, but the majority is all crap. Unfortunately I seem to worry too much and feel a lack of my own individual freedom.

To those who do not know the manosphere, it's a domain of men's rights, sex, sexual politics and anti-feminism. To me, like feminism, it all seems like one big joke. Both sides claim to fight for 'equality' but in my perspective the word 'equality' is a very vague word and everyone seems to set their own marker for equality. The various posts by MGTOWs are very depressing and somewhat nihilistic. It seems as if it supports men who want to individually go their own way, but it's more of a collective than an individual one. Their beliefs against the 'Not All Women Are Like That' and in the 'hypergamy' (meaning women will go out with others but only until they see a man 'better' than who they are with) all sounds negative.

I myself have been hurt by an ex who is 5 years younger than me who emotionally abused me for money, and I understand that most of these MGTOWs are divorced and broken up men whose lives have been hurt by them, but the difference is that I have moved on and re-defined what kind of woman I am looking for (even though I do miss my ex at times, despite she needs to grow up). I am aware of the 'statistics' of men raped and domestically abused by women and it's possible, but no offence my motto is 'All Under Scrutiny'. Hell most of those MGTOWs are anonymous.

In the end, I am just tired of the chaos and endless battles against either gender. Being an MGTOW reminds me of my miserable early life and I can't be single forever. I feel very apathetic and hopeless after reading all those comments and articles and 'how to be a man'. So depressing...



elkclan
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16 Jun 2014, 7:18 am

Quote:
In the early part of the twentieth century in the United States history records that women won the right to vote. It would be more accurate to say that men lost the right to represent their families.


Huh?

Why do I need a man to represent me in the electoral system?

What about men without families? Should they still be allowed to vote? What about women without a man to 'represent them'? Should they be enfranchised by exception?

As it so happens, I can't vote where I live but my husband can. He hasn't been doing a very good job of representing me or my viewpoints or interests (if he's telling the truth about who he votes for and I have no reason to suspect he isn't).

I know I shouldn't be arguing with you, as this is just madness.



tarantella64
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16 Jun 2014, 11:15 am

elkclan wrote:
Quote:
In the early part of the twentieth century in the United States history records that women won the right to vote. It would be more accurate to say that men lost the right to represent their families.


Huh?

Why do I need a man to represent me in the electoral system?

What about men without families? Should they still be allowed to vote? What about women without a man to 'represent them'? Should they be enfranchised by exception?

As it so happens, I can't vote where I live but my husband can. He hasn't been doing a very good job of representing me or my viewpoints or interests (if he's telling the truth about who he votes for and I have no reason to suspect he isn't).

I know I shouldn't be arguing with you, as this is just madness.


[yeah, but elkclan, that's not because women are disenfranchised where you are, it's because Americans already get to vote for the whole world. Well, not that exactly. But still. You can go say hi to the pic of the Queen if you want.]

Anyway. These are powerless guys who aren't very bright and are kept down by other guys, so they turn around and kick the cat, who's us. That's all. They knit themselves this whole obscene olde-goode-tymes fairy tale (where they wouldn't have been indentured servants picking fleas, or anything), and then go around believing it, and it becomes a problem when they have guns.

Every now and then I've run into one of these fellows, and because they're completely contemptuous of women, they see me at first as a novelty and some kind of hope for womankind: She can talk like an intelligent person! And then it begins to dawn on them that actually I'm a lot brighter and vastly better-educated than they are, and the enthusiasm dims, and by the time they're done I'm probably one of the leaders of thes yar evil wimmin's matriarchal takeover scheme what with the balls drying on a rack in my attic. Except I'm not all bad because nice legs and I didn't laugh at them. But even so they're uneasy.



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16 Jun 2014, 1:15 pm

The manosphere had some great ideas prior to RedPill becaming prominent.

MGTOW or men going their own way is a great idea that should be encouraged more and there are plenty of similar stuff if you look around (it is even recommended material on several redpill webs) redpill just seems too focused on blaming women rather than self improvement to me.

Maybe that is why pook left. You should pick up the book of pook if you havent, it has more than enough interesting ideas and its made up of short chapters(its just an edited version of his posts so it couldnt be too long or people would stop reading)



tarantella64
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16 Jun 2014, 7:56 pm

spongy wrote:
The manosphere had some great ideas prior to RedPill becaming prominent.

MGTOW or men going their own way is a great idea that should be encouraged more and there are plenty of similar stuff if you look around (it is even recommended material on several redpill webs) redpill just seems too focused on blaming women rather than self improvement to me.

Maybe that is why pook left. You should pick up the book of pook if you havent, it has more than enough interesting ideas and its made up of short chapters(its just an edited version of his posts so it couldnt be too long or people would stop reading)


The summary above makes it sound like a lot of juvenile Ayn Rand sadness mixed with the kind of week-in-the-woods thing Sinclair Lewis made good fun of. They used to have a thing called "confirmed bachelors" which sounds like a much saner and more civil way of going about it.



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17 Jun 2014, 2:49 am

@Tarantella

OK, fair enough, my American vote is like 7 UK votes. :wink:

And in my work I'll probably speak to more MPs face to face this month than most people vote for in their lifetime.

I don't feel disenfranchised. Still it would be nice to vote.



SeigiCitadel24
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22 Jun 2014, 10:02 am

spongy wrote:
The manosphere had some great ideas prior to RedPill becaming prominent.

MGTOW or men going their own way is a great idea that should be encouraged more and there are plenty of similar stuff if you look around (it is even recommended material on several redpill webs) redpill just seems too focused on blaming women rather than self improvement to me.

Maybe that is why pook left. You should pick up the book of pook if you havent, it has more than enough interesting ideas and its made up of short chapters(its just an edited version of his posts so it couldnt be too long or people would stop reading)


The MGTOW is an idea, but I can hardly call it "great" and even though I am not well-versed in philosophy (yet), it reeks of Objectivism via self-interest. Sure self-interest is great, but I would rather achieve what I want to enrich the lives of others through education.

Personally I find all of those redpill webs as deluded and laughable IMHO. Even if the MGTOW is somewhat 'pro-indivualism' it fails to convince me as such, and I find it as a setback than as a step forward to achieving my path. The 'book of pook' is basic PUA and tribalist propaganda: more of the 'I am only worthy of sex' and 'women are only into sex' tripe. In one word: BOLLOCKS!



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22 Jun 2014, 2:43 pm

Not really sure wtf the manosphere is.

I, too, enjoy sex but have never been one to talk about it or discuss number of partners or anything like that. It's personal. I find it interesting when others brag about things like that, yet when I've later learned the number of partners they've been so proud to have bedded I think "really? that guy thinks so highly of himself sexually, meanwhile he hasn't had very many partners and really can't justify thinking of himself as such a lady killer."

As for "being a man," it's one of the reasons I recently read the book "Might is Right," (aka Survival of the Fittest) by Ragnar Redbeard (1896) & there was a lot of valuable very manly info/philosophy. The next book I've just started is much more straight to the point of "being a man," as it is called "The Way of Men." I'm only a dozen pages into it and have put it on hold while I do other things I have to get done first, but I intend to read it to sort of "toughen," myself up a bit. I'm not a completely passive total pushover, but I'd like to be a lot more assertive/aggressive than I am and tend to learn well from books. I find that reading is like programming your brain and hope to get a lot of value out of this book, too.

For those that have read my posts stating that I'm gay (I am), I'm not a femmy gay stereotype AT ALL and am not reading these sorts of things to overcome being a flaming gay boy. I simply acknowledge that I need to be more assertive, aggressive, and competitive in life in order to succeed in the areas the I aspire to, and so.. I will learn to be that way. Maybe the OP and others reading this thread might get some value out of reading books like this in order to have a better understanding of what "being a man," is all about in the eyes of society at large? Just a thought. Up to you whether you're interested in reading stuff like this for those reasons.


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22 Jun 2014, 2:56 pm

"Manosphere" sounds like the worst X-Man ever.



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22 Jun 2014, 4:29 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
"Manosphere" sounds like the worst X-Man ever.
His mutant power is to curl into a ball and deflect ideas that challenge his mind and body.


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