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The_Walrus
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07 Sep 2014, 2:40 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
I've heard that Orkney and Shetland want to become part of Norway.

The Shetlands I can understand, the Orkneys are closer to the Scottish mainland, though. Seems to me their concerns are about the distance from the seat of government which is (for all practical purposes) London and Windsor.
There is no practical purpose in which Windsor is the seat of government of the Shetlands. Windsor's "power" is solely notional, whereas Edinburgh does actually set laws.



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07 Sep 2014, 2:53 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
I've heard that Orkney and Shetland want to become part of Norway.

The Shetlands I can understand, the Orkneys are closer to the Scottish mainland, though. Seems to me their concerns are about the distance from the seat of government which is (for all practical purposes) London and Windsor.
There is no practical purpose in which Windsor is the seat of government of the Shetlands. Windsor's "power" is solely notional, whereas Edinburgh does actually set laws.

Then, I am confused. How can the monarchy have the kind of ultimate authority it exhibited against Canada from 2008 through 2011 (and other constituent nations throughout its history) http://www.infowars.com/queen-dissolves ... in-3-years when it dissolved the Canadian Parliament three times in as many years, but not when the matter is about Scottish independence?


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08 Sep 2014, 2:03 pm

I believe the monarchy's powers in governmental matters are nominal these days,being in effect only for tradition and ceremonial display. The Queen is granted the respect of being seen to give 'permission' for certain things when in reality political decisions have already
been made and guidance given to her as to what she has to agree to.
A spokesman for Buckingham Palace emphasised yesterday that The Queen remains neutral where the Scottish referendum is concerened,although privately it's recognised that she has emotional ties to the Union,as do most British people in her generation.


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08 Sep 2014, 2:37 pm

Why can't Scottish people who live abroad vote on this matter?


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08 Sep 2014, 3:24 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Why can't Scottish people who live abroad vote on this matter?


An explanation from Wikipedia "This was opposed by the Scottish Government, which argued that it would greatly increase the complexity of the referendum and stated that there was evidence from the United Nations Human Rights Committee that other nations "might question the legitimacy of a referendum if the franchise is not territorial" "

Seems crazy to me anyway that the 800,000 Scots who live in other parts of the UK can't vote,yet citizens of another 79 countries (52
British Commonwealth and 27 EU countries) are entitled to vote if they are temporarily residing in Scotland.


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Ornithicas
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08 Sep 2014, 4:37 pm

pluto wrote:
I believe the monarchy's powers in governmental matters are nominal these days [?]

Usually. [Link]

pluto wrote:
[?] being in effect only for tradition and ceremonial display.

Yeah, the English have a fondness for strange and nonsensical tradition.

Regarding the referendum, I understand it well enough, but I think it's a little like cutting your nose off to spite your face. At least, that was my gut response. Factually . . . I'm not sure exactly how much would change. Scotland has (more or less) independent taxation and spending powers, and access to resources like North Sea oil. Last I heard, they planned to remain in the European Union with fiscal ties to the British pound. Though where keeping the pound is concerned, I suspect there have been complications that I haven't looked far enough into.



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08 Sep 2014, 4:56 pm

I am not opposed to the vote at all, I just think it is interesting that I have not heard of such an example where not all parts of union get to vote on it resulting in succession.

Personally I think it would be a mistake, however if they do I'll respect that.

I would say on fiscal union, with that question there absolutely MUST be a vote on that. It would undemocratic no to.

It is ridiculous to insist on a fiscal union in a non political union, but most of all they have no right to do this against the will of the citizens of the union of which the central bank resides, a union they have chosen to leave.

Would the US accept Panama having control over the Central Bank / Federal Reserve? I don't think so.

My concern is really this referendum is presented as a Yes an No question when it isn't. In reality is SNP policy is a lot of the benefits of union without the responsibilities rather than true independence.



Last edited by 0_equals_true on 08 Sep 2014, 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Sep 2014, 5:00 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
I've heard that Orkney and Shetland want to become part of Norway.

The Shetlands I can understand, the Orkneys are closer to the Scottish mainland, though. Seems to me their concerns are about the distance from the seat of government which is (for all practical purposes) London and Windsor. If that seat were to move to, say, Edinburgh, the Orkney and Shetland islanders might feel less inclined to seek independence, crown dependency of their own or subsumption with Norway. The big question is: Would Norway accept the idea of governing the islands?


It is not to to do with distance, it is to do with the culture and heritage.

They are essentially as Norwegian/Scandinavian as they are Scots if not more.

Isn't factionalism great though. :roll:



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08 Sep 2014, 6:23 pm

Ornithicas wrote:
pluto wrote:
I believe the monarchy's powers in governmental matters are nominal these days [?]

Usually. [Link]

pluto wrote:
[?] being in effect only for tradition and ceremonial display.

Yeah, the English have a fondness for strange and nonsensical tradition.

Regarding the referendum, I understand it well enough, but I think it's a little like cutting your nose off to spite your face. At least, that was my gut response. Factually . . . I'm not sure exactly how much would change. Scotland has (more or less) independent taxation and spending powers, and access to resources like North Sea oil. Last I heard, they planned to remain in the European Union with fiscal ties to the British pound. Though where keeping the pound is concerned, I suspect there have been complications that I haven't looked far enough into.


Yes,I find it difficult to understand how we would be truly independent.Alex Salmond also wants to keep the monarchy.be a member
of NATO (despite getting rid of nuclear weapons) and have an open border with England,and Northern Ireland for that matter,despite
advocating a different immingration policy from the rest of the UK.


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08 Sep 2014, 6:36 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
I am not opposed to the vote at all, I just think it is interesting that I have not heard of such an example where not all parts of union get to vote on it resulting in succession.


It's a fair point and I agree about the fiscal union side of it and whether it's really 'independence'.I don't think Alex Salmond has any right to demand to use the British pound under the security of the Bank of England. This is major issue that the No campaign has argued with him
about.
Regarding the basic Yes/No aspect of the referendum,the flip side of the argument is that if the UK held a referendum on secession from the European Union,by the same reasoning should all the other countries in the EU be entitled to vote on allowing that ?


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09 Sep 2014, 5:29 am

pluto wrote:
Ornithicas wrote:
pluto wrote:
I believe the monarchy's powers in governmental matters are nominal these days [?]

Usually. [Link]

pluto wrote:
[?] being in effect only for tradition and ceremonial display.

Yeah, the English have a fondness for strange and nonsensical tradition.

Regarding the referendum, I understand it well enough, but I think it's a little like cutting your nose off to spite your face. At least, that was my gut response. Factually . . . I'm not sure exactly how much would change. Scotland has (more or less) independent taxation and spending powers, and access to resources like North Sea oil. Last I heard, they planned to remain in the European Union with fiscal ties to the British pound. Though where keeping the pound is concerned, I suspect there have been complications that I haven't looked far enough into.


Yes,I find it difficult to understand how we would be truly independent.Alex Salmond also wants to keep the monarchy.be a member
of NATO (despite getting rid of nuclear weapons) and have an open border with England,and Northern Ireland for that matter,despite
advocating a different immingration policy from the rest of the UK.


That is how it is in the EU as well. Every country sets their own immigration policy, but the borders are open. That's why hordes of people are trying to get from Calais to the UK illegally, they believe they have better odds there than in France. If you want to become a Europeanunionan, you just pick the country with the loosest immigration policy.
And isn't the British monarchy as much Scottish as it is English? I think it was the Scottish king who inherited England and Wales, not the other way around.



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09 Sep 2014, 1:39 pm

Although the borders are open to EU citizens,you can't travel legally to or from the UK without a passport. As it's doubtul that Scotland would get re-entry to the EU for several years,if at all,there would be a period where people could quite easily travel from outside the EU to inside it and vice-versa through an open border.
The subject of the monarchy divides opinion in Scotland as much as the referendum does.The monarchy does have historical links through the original Stuart dynasty and there are many people who have affection for and respect the current royal family,but the rest feel detached from it especially when non-Scots refer to 'The Queen Of England'. As the constitution forbids Catholics from the throne this also tends to alienate some of the large Catholic minority in Scotland. The British national anthem originally had a 3rd verse (which is not sung now) referring to 'Rebellious Scots to crush'.


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09 Sep 2014, 1:47 pm

As an American I can't say I have super strong feeling either way, I generally come down on the side of independence when these questions arise and oppose central authorities. I'm not too sure the Scottish government would be any better than the UK one, I don't really understand wanting independence from London to be closer to Brussels. I support the right to separate totally and hope that if Scotland does vote for independence that it sets precedence all over.



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10 Sep 2014, 10:46 am

pluto wrote:
As it's doubtul that Scotland would get re-entry to the EU for several years,if at all,there would be a period where people could quite easily travel from outside the EU to inside it and vice-versa through an open border.


There seems to be some legal complications surrounding that issue. At the very least Scotland would have to worry for an UK, France, Spanish veto. The first for reasons surrounding the split off, the other two because they have regions in their countries that would want to split off from them as well and letting Scotland enter could be seen as an encouragement. Alto in essence it would just mean that, in the case of Scotland, one would change Westminister for Brussels, in so far it is not already the case in practice.

Quote:
The monarchy does have historical links through the original Stuart dynasty and there are many people who have affection for and respect the current royal family,but the rest feel detached from it especially when non-Scots refer to 'The Queen Of England'. As the constitution forbids Catholics from the throne this also tends to alienate some of the large Catholic minority in Scotland.


If the SNP have their way Scotland would become a republic. And I highly doubt that the Jacobites would be strong enough to counter them, even presuming they have a willing pretender to the throne (which they do not have at the moment).



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10 Sep 2014, 11:58 am

pluto wrote:
Although the borders are open to EU citizens,you can't travel legally to or from the UK without a passport. As it's doubtul that Scotland would get re-entry to the EU for several years,if at all,there would be a period where people could quite easily travel from outside the EU to inside it and vice-versa through an open border.
The subject of the monarchy divides opinion in Scotland as much as the referendum does.The monarchy does have historical links through the original Stuart dynasty and there are many people who have affection for and respect the current royal family,but the rest feel detached from it especially when non-Scots refer to 'The Queen Of England'. As the constitution forbids Catholics from the throne this also tends to alienate some of the large Catholic minority in Scotland. The British national anthem originally had a 3rd verse (which is not sung now) referring to 'Rebellious Scots to crush'.


I'd imagine they would negotiate entry into the EU before seccession. I imagine they would think of what currency to adopt as well before leaving. Obviously both the UK and Scotland would retain close economic ties, I think they would quickly negotiate a treaty to allow free travel to and from the UK and Scotland since there are many people who have work or family ties on the other side of the border.
And I don't think you are correct about the passports. You only need a passport if you are not a EU citizen (or from the Schengen area). I crossed EU "borders" many times without even owning a passport.



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10 Sep 2014, 2:36 pm

You may be able to travel freely on the continent if you are an EU citizen,but the UK has stricter regulations and you do still need a passport or national ID card to enter.
This is a link to visitbritain website which confirms this
http://www.visitbritain.com/en/Travel-tips/Customs-and-immigration/

If it's a Yes vote then a lot of compromises may have to be reached but as things stand both the UK and Spain have made suggestions about vetoing Scotland's application to the EU and the UK government are refusing a currency union.The SNP says in that case Scotland will refuse to accept any share of the UK's national debts,so it is all very messy !


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