Keeping Faith whilst accepting rational evidence.

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29 Jul 2014, 4:34 am

This is all going far off topic from the OP.

All of you smarties are leaving out one very important thing.

Energy.

Essentially you are no different than a car. You have a gas tank. That fuels an engine. That makes a generator work, and stores some power in a battery. Only for you, unlike a car, without gas, the bag of water fails, to never work again.

Since you need other life, and plants in order to live, you are essentially on a much lower scale than a plant. Weaker, more vulnerable, and less important. However your self importance makes you believe otherwise, because you think too much.

O.k. now back to energy.

Here is my stupid theory I just made up that pertains to the OP.
Electricity goes from (-) to (+). Unlike what most people think for some reason?
Let us say that we are energy, of course, because without it there would be no us, and no universe. The only way for it to travel is from (-) to (+) right?. So let us just assume (have a little faith here) that the (-) from you, goes to the (+) in god. Not the other way around (god is not (-) because I said so. My theory, my rules). You cannot see, touch, hear, or smell it. However you may feel it, somehow, possibly developing somekind of second sight, because you can feel it leave you. it is all around you. All you see are rocks, light, and bags of mostly water and stuff. You try to make sence if these things all day long, but you can't. You do not have the capacity. I don't care how smart you are. Or how much science is in the universe (again, my rules). So have a little faith you degenerative, unimportant, ugly bags of mostly water.

You can take you college degrees, your science, your physics, and your math and cram it in your smarty panties.

I think therfore I am. It is that simple. There is and probably will be no value, rules, or scientific equation for the reason why or how you think, or awareness.
It is god. I know it is knowledge. Because I have faith (again, my rules). Play all the games, say all the things, and write on a chalkboard all you want, I don't care. I know I'm right. Not because I'm smart, perfect, or have a degree, and can prove something. It is because im not, I cannot be, and I do not have. I have faith. The absence of all other things makes me know the truth. It is there. Right in front of you. Between your eyes, and that computer screen. Now all you nay sayers who are too smart for your own good will look at this post i made, evaluate it, pick it apart, and extrapolate all the things inbetween your eyes, and a computer screen, and totally miss my meaning. Like some endless fruitless waste of time.

I cannot believe I actually read all of this stuff, and replied. It is futile.

TallyMan
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29 Jul 2014, 5:15 am

^ I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

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DentArthurDent
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29 Jul 2014, 5:38 am

TallyMan wrote:

^ I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Oh good I thought it was just me. I have crossed swords with this one previously, at first I thought he had some insight, something I could learn from, then I discovered that no, I was not missing the point, I was just given him too much respect, by trying to find a point in his statements.

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simon_says
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29 Jul 2014, 5:47 am

AngelRho wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

simon_says wrote:

Quote:

Except there is evidence that the universe began to exist at some point. It isn't logically necessary that a cause itself have a finite beginning. A cause could be infinite and itself uncaused. Thus it's reasonable that something outside of our universe caused it to come into existence ex nihilo.

We know of extreme conditions in the universe where common sense does not apply in any way. Yet you want to apply it to the most extreme circumstance that we know of? And then invoke special pleading for your sky daddy? Look, have faith all day long. Worship three purple unicorns if you like. But try to understand the magnitude of the problem. It's not some "gee whiz, I reckon" kind of issue and it likely never will be.

When I was doing my physics degree 30 years ago, one of the profs drew a graph on the whiteboard of velocities against distances. It had a logarithmic scale and went from 0 m/s to the speed of light and the plank distance to the size of the universe. Human common sense only applied to a tiny area on the chart, yet humans tend to extrapolate their common sense to distances and velocities well outside of their daily experience and somehow expect common sense to still hold, when in reality if fails and fails very badly. The only way to describe these areas outside human common sense is by using mathematics.

My point wasn't a common-sense argument, anyway. It took someone explaining the concept of a Uncaused Cause v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y for me to understand exactly what that meant. A first cause can logically be infinite and itself uncaused. I think we all agree that everything we know that ever began to exist had a cause. We all agree that the universe began to exist. Science may not be able to assess what the first cause might have been or speculate about its nature. But it can provide evidence that leads us to conclude that everything that begins to exist is caused by something. It would take a smarter person than me to represent that mathematically, but I figure someone out there could do it.

I don't mean to overstep, but I'd venture a guess that ex nihilo existence probably could be proven mathematically--everything that is came from a causal chain all the way back to the Big Bang, itself having been caused by some, I dunno, singularity(?), before which only energy existed. Even that energy would require a cause to come into being. We know energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so if energy itself is the penultimate end to the causal chain, then what cause preexisted energy? Nothing we're yet aware of. If, indeed, there really was nothing preexisting energy, then you have?well?nothing. IF that's the case, ex nihilo is, I suppose, supported mathematically.

I'm not the physics expert, so I admit I'm just flailing around in the dark on this one, i.e. exactly how it all works. All I know is it isn't logically necessary for a primary Cause to itself have a cause nor for it to be a part of the physical universe itself.

Yes, you've partially parsed the dishonesty of William Lane Craig But there are other features to it and another side to the argument.

Everyday rules, common sense and logic as we know it will have little to do with it. Explain the logical underpinning of quantum mechanics. Things can get much stranger and likely must. Sure god-niks are always chasing god of the gaps. Whenever a road ends in uncertainty they insist that god is hiding there, and then the uncertainty ends and they go chasing him somewhere else. WLC is pushing yet another variant of god of the gaps where he insists that the universe itself could not be eternal. He demands god exist right inside the next mouse hole.... and the universe yawns.

yournamehere
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29 Jul 2014, 9:15 pm

TallyMan wrote:

^ I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Me either

. I thought I would stop making sence and throw all rationality completely out the window. See if all of that chaos into order theory is going to work for someone around here. Because the rest is not either. :lol:

LoveNotHate
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29 Jul 2014, 10:36 pm

AngelRho wrote:

I don't mean to overstep, but I'd venture a guess that ex nihilo existence probably could be proven mathematically--everything that is came from a causal chain all the way back to the Big Bang

From an earlier topic we discussed this ...

TallyMan wrote:

Well I've been saying it for a number of years (as have many others) and now some physicists have come up with a mathematical proof that the universe could indeed have spontaneously formed from nothing. No gods required. We live in interesting times.

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3

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TallyMan
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30 Jul 2014, 8:36 am

LoveNotHate wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

I don't mean to overstep, but I'd venture a guess that ex nihilo existence probably could be proven mathematically--everything that is came from a causal chain all the way back to the Big Bang

From an earlier topic we discussed this ...

TallyMan wrote:

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/ed7ed0f304a3

Oh yes! I'd forgotten about that thread. I've got a memory like erm... one of those things in the kitchen one strains vegetable in.

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yournamehere
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31 Jul 2014, 7:18 am

^^^ I don't think you need some elaborate equation for that. A little bit of movement can do that. From rf noise, electricity, a hammer, on some nitro glycerin, water and wind, a gas that is lighter than gas, or whatever. Nothing exists without movement. Even a rock is moving.

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