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snake321
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02 Mar 2007, 9:32 pm

I say this because, despite the fact that the Vatican has alot of political power, and despite what the religious right here in America have been up to, I hear often that religions (especially christianity) are crumbling down, and perhaps religious leaders are veying for control to keep their respective religions alive...... Although I might have a hard time seeing this because Christianity is the ONLY religion able to market itself openly in American society.
One also must ask, seeing as most people aren't intelligent enough to have morality of their own will, if religion did fall would people errupt into chaos?



jimservo
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02 Mar 2007, 9:42 pm

No. People asked this long before today, and they will ask it again. We live today in America and Europe so religion seems to be disappearing from our affairs and that is correct, but it isn't going away everywhere. It is just moving. Christianity is rapidly expanding into Africa, and somewhat less rapidly into Asia. The devotees of Islam are still very strong.

Religion will remain a constant regard of intellectual and militant attempts to stop it.



richardbenson
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02 Mar 2007, 9:46 pm

the pope is one of the biggest jokes next to the UN. i thought the bible said you werent allowed to worship anyone but god? the pope gets treated like a god thats for shure. and all those saints and mary worship pretty much go against what christianity is about so i dont know how catholics are even considerd christians


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jimservo
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02 Mar 2007, 10:10 pm

richardbenson wrote:
the pope is one of the biggest jokes next to the UN. i thought the bible said you werent allowed to worship anyone but god? the pope gets treated like a god thats for shure. and all those saints and mary worship pretty much go against what christianity is about so i dont know how catholics are even considerd christians


Believe what you want. My family is Catholic (me=agnostic) and they definitely do not worship the pope. There is a whole catechism that lays out the whole thing.

Again, though, people can believe what they want to. It's like this deal with people who just won't vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon. After all, Mormon's say they are Christian's but they "aren't really." What the heck does this have to do with whether or not he is the best man to be the President (I am undecided)? Geeze!



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02 Mar 2007, 10:22 pm

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823



jimservo
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02 Mar 2007, 10:58 pm

Various Early Famous American figures on quotes relating to religion. This is simply to demonstrate that it is easy to use quotes them to typecast them particular causes.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." -John Adams

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Samuel Adams

"Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a schoolbook? Its morals are pure, its examples are captivating and noble....In no Book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant, and by teaching all the same they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well as of faith." Fisher Ames (Author of the First Amendment)

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped." -Benjamin Franklin

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." -Alexander Hamilton

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." -John Jay (First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, co-editor of the Federalist Papers)

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson (Jefferson was generally a deist but I suppose not an "absolute" one)

"The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States, will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion." -Noah Webster

"Let my heart therefore gracious God be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works but wait on Thee, and discharge those weighty duties Thou required of me: and since Thou art a God of pure eyes, and will be sanctified in all who draw nearer to Thee, who dost not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in Thy courts, pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, my prayer may come before Thee as incense, and as I desire Thou wouldst hear me calling upon Thee in my prayers, so give me peace to hear the calling on me in Thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day ofthe Lord Jesus." -George Washington

"It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being." -George Washington



richardbenson
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02 Mar 2007, 11:06 pm

jimservo wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
the pope is one of the biggest jokes next to the UN. i thought the bible said you werent allowed to worship anyone but god? the pope gets treated like a god thats for shure. and all those saints and mary worship pretty much go against what christianity is about so i dont know how catholics are even considerd christians
Believe what you want. My family is Catholic (me=agnostic) and they definitely do not worship the pope. There is a whole catechism that lays out the whole thing.
Again, though, people can believe what they want to. It's like this deal with people who just won't vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon. After all, Mormon's say they are Christian's but they "aren't really." What the heck does this have to do with whether or not he is the best man to be the President (I am undecided)? Geeze!
well i dont think mormons know what they are, and mitt romney is a clown everyone who runs for office is. so why do catholics pray to mary or all those other saints? god not big enough for the problem? or our catholics trying to put a human feel to divinity or what? either way i dont really see how catholics can be considerd christans when alot of the way they act contradicts what the bible says


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jimservo
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02 Mar 2007, 11:16 pm

richardbenson wrote:
either way i dont really see how catholics can be considerd christans when alot of the way they act contradicts what the bible says


Fine. There is obviously a subjective element here. "Catholic Joe" isn't thinking, "Let's go contradict what the bible says so I can go to hell*.) *Assuming that is where it would even lead. If that is what Catholic Joe was thinking he would become Protestant Joe. But then again atheist Steve would say to Protestant Joe, "Don't you know religion is a delusion?" Then if now-Protestant Joe didn't bother to think things through on his own at all he would now just become Atheist Joe. That is until Johava's Witness Rebecca and Timothy knock on the door, and talk to him for a couple of minutes leading to him to become ect, ect...



richardbenson
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02 Mar 2007, 11:19 pm

i know dude religion is a joke. call it what it is


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snake321
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02 Mar 2007, 11:24 pm

But my point is, do any of you think religion is crumbling away? Do you think religion is loosing it's control over people? Or over society?



richardbenson
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02 Mar 2007, 11:27 pm

no. i think religion is multiplying, its getting out of freaking control and needs to be stopped at once!


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jimservo
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02 Mar 2007, 11:31 pm

richardbenson wrote:
i know dude religion is a joke. call it what it is


Here is the thing. I don't know. You know. Lots of people on the board know. But I don't. I realize many (not all) of the atheists on the board are content to call people who don't come out and say "Richard Dawkins* is right" "delusional" and pretend they are superior to everyone else. But you guys aren't, sorry. You just mouth off, and drive off people who might otherwise feel welcome.

This is the "better world" that tolerant atheists I guess are suppose to bring. See, regardless of whether of not any of the religions are true, that is less important then the effect they have on society. Frankly, in the end, I would prefer happy kind compassionate religious people then mean intolerant atheists any day of the week, regardless of where they think I am going in the afterlife.

*BTW, Richard Dawkins is a jerk. He is a backer of eugenics too, interestingly enough. It is curious how once you remove God from picture you become obsessed with "improving" this world. G.K. Chesterton, the Catholic apologist, once famously said that once we stop believing in religion, you will start believing in anything. The state and the party were the twentieth century examples of this.



skafather84
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02 Mar 2007, 11:32 pm

jimservo wrote:
Various Early Famous American figures on quotes relating to religion. This is simply to demonstrate that it is easy to use quotes them to typecast them particular causes.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." -John Adams

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Samuel Adams

"Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a schoolbook? Its morals are pure, its examples are captivating and noble....In no Book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant, and by teaching all the same they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well as of faith." Fisher Ames (Author of the First Amendment)

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped." -Benjamin Franklin

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." -Alexander Hamilton

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." -John Jay (First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, co-editor of the Federalist Papers)

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson (Jefferson was generally a deist but I suppose not an "absolute" one)

"The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States, will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion." -Noah Webster

"Let my heart therefore gracious God be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works but wait on Thee, and discharge those weighty duties Thou required of me: and since Thou art a God of pure eyes, and will be sanctified in all who draw nearer to Thee, who dost not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in Thy courts, pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, my prayer may come before Thee as incense, and as I desire Thou wouldst hear me calling upon Thee in my prayers, so give me peace to hear the calling on me in Thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day ofthe Lord Jesus." -George Washington

"It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being." -George Washington





"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed." - John Adams


"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years." John Adams letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief


"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774 - James Madison [1751-1836] American president and political theorist. Popularly known as the "Father of the Constitution." More than any other framer he is responsible for the content and form of the First Amendment.


but then again, i like to get my quotes and sources from atheistempire...so you can pretty much count it all as being out of context and misinterpreted. :P :twisted:



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02 Mar 2007, 11:36 pm

The issue with the quotes is they are pointless, that is what I simply wanted to point out. What are they to demonstrate? Thomas Jefferson was an atheist? He wasn't. Thomas Jefferson, and Madison (and certain other founders) weren't found of organized religion? Fine, I'll agree. Adams (and his son John Quincy) was a Unitarian. He was a religious one however.

Look, The founders had a multitude of views on religion. They generally weren't particular pro-Catholic, certainly. But I am not sure what this or that particular quote is suppose to mean other then starting a quote war, or a quote with contextual context war.



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02 Mar 2007, 11:41 pm

Hardline atheists are just as irrational as religious freaks of any faith. They don't disect or analyze what is "supernatural" enough. I think rather one agrees or not, they should atleast be open to the possibilities that some of the things currently considered "supernatural" might be able to be scientifically explained on a higher level. Most likely through energy mechanics and energy flow. Doesn't mean they have to agree with it, just that they should keep an open mind towards it. Science has far from peaked.
Also alot of hardline atheists also tend to use psychology, evolution, eugenics, sociology, whatever, as an excuse to act like neanderthals.

Technically I'm atheist but I'm not the one for labels, I don't follow it so strongly that I f**k it up.



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02 Mar 2007, 11:49 pm

However, this might be a controversial position to take, but I think people need to be made to overcome their inner animals, by law and by force if need be. it should be carried out as compassionately as possible, but we need to be looking out for the greater good of the human race. This means certain things such as irrational biggotry need to be outlawed. Freedom is only good as long as it is balancec with responsibility and geared towards the common good of the species.

Religion is already prooven wrong, it was prooven wrong when they found evidence of evolution. The only reason religion survived was because of the inner animal and emotional thinking patterns (they couldn't accept that what they were taught was wrong, and hince they pass the same disproven lies onto their kids, and so on). But religion is an evolved lie that thrives on extremes and causes unneccessary war, therefore religion is not good for the common good of humanity, overcoming the inner animal definately IS. Although I won't discount the theory that they were misinterpreted and perhaps they were all connected in UFO cover-up theories. I think those theories could still hold alot of water.