High-schoolers who use marijuana do more poorly

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11 Sep 2014, 6:41 pm

http://mic.com/articles/98552/scientist ... ts-are-bad

I have to wonder, though, about cause and effect.

For example, on a possible relationship between marijuana use and the development of schizophrenia. The schizophrenia seems to develop after long-term pot use, so it is blamed on the pot use. The only problem is that it doesn't take into account the fact that for most people schizophrenia develops very slowly, and there is evidence that the first symptoms, termed self-disorders which represent an instability in the self-world structure leading to alarming and agonizing but also very subtle and insidious symptoms that are NOT experienced by the patients as symptoms of a disease, already develop by childhood or early adolescence (emphases added):

Quote:

This basic self-world structure is disturbed in schizophrenia spectrum disorders, ie, it is constantly challenged, unstable, and oscillating, resulting in alarming and alienating anomalous self-experiences (also termed ?self-disorders?), typically occurring already in childhood or early adolescence. The patients feel ephemeral, lacking core identity, profoundly, yet often ineffably different from others (Anderssein) and alienated from the social world. There is a diminished sense of existing as a bodily subject, distortions of the first-person perspective with a failing sense of ?mineness? of the field of awareness (eg, ?it feels as if the thoughts aren?t really mine?), and a deficient sense of privacy of the inner world. There is a significant lack of attunement and immersion in the world, inadequate prereflective grasp of self-evident meanings (perplexity), and hyper-reflectivity (eg, ?I only live in my head? and ?I always observe myself?). Although patients often suffer from self-disorders, the latter are usually lived in an ego-syntonic way, as modes rather than as objects, of the patients? experience, ie, often affecting more the ?how? than the ?what? of experience. What is important to emphasize at this point is that the self-disorders, reflecting the unstable basic self-world structure, destabilize the natural ontological attitude and may throw the patient into a new ontological-existential perspective, an often solipsistic framework, no longer ruled by the ?natural? certitudes concerning space, time, causality, and noncontradiction. Unconstrained by these certitudes, the world may appear as only apparent or staged, ontologically mind-dependent, prone to noncausal relations, and the patient may experience a unique access to deeper layers of reality, which are inaccessible to others. Often, these experiences evoke a specific sense of grandiosity, leaving others to be seen as oblivious to the true nature of reality and only concerned with everyday trivialities.

Quote:

The patients often do not experience their initial self-disorders, from which psychosis emerges, as ?symptoms? of an illness (similar to how an intense abdominal pain might be a symptom of appendicitis) but rather as intrinsic and habitual aspects of their existence and identity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3984518/

This seems pretty agonizing (and I admit I experienced a lot of this throughout my life though I never used pot). It may be that those using pot who go on to develop schizophrenia are already experiencing these very early symptoms of schizophrenia and are seeking relief from the agony of their self-disorders by using substances, which self-disorders will later on in development give way to full-blown schizophrenic psychosis.

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AmethystRose
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11 Sep 2014, 9:55 pm

Quote:

I have to wonder, though, about cause and effect

I'm glad you said that. We have to wonder about cause and effect a LOT in this case.

Cause and effect might be even be reversed, in this case: Doing badly in earlier school grades might contribute to cannabis use in high school.

sonofghandi
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12 Sep 2014, 12:43 pm

AmethystRose wrote:

Cause and effect might be even be reversed, in this case: Doing badly in earlier school grades might contribute to cannabis use in high school.

I would say that all the hard-core stoners I hung out with in high school did poorly the whole way through, long before they they started smoking.

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shlaifu
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12 Sep 2014, 5:33 pm

I'd say it's mutually reinforcing. (not saying anything about cannabis and schizophrenia, I have neither experience with nor education in this matter)

I sure have seen a bunch of good to mediocre students turn into mental tomatoes through daily consumption of highly potent GMO weed, and occasionally experienced significant temporary stupidity for days after consumption myself.

The suggestion of legalizing marijuana and try a different approach is something I can only agree with, though, following a german 'legal drinking age' model (not saying that that actually works perfectly or anything), which means a culture around recreational use, so that, without the 'cultural occasion' of a friday night, it's socially inacceptable to consume. Tying in drug use as a part of normal life to establish social boundaries- in contrast to the current situation, in which the social environment of consumers is often other consumers, due to the illegality of the act.

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Protogenoi
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12 Sep 2014, 7:30 pm

I'd say the marijuana is more likely a form of self medication for the earlier symptoms.

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12 Sep 2014, 8:11 pm

Protogenoi wrote:

I'd say the marijuana is more likely a form of self medication for the earlier symptoms.

I agree. Was in my case.

I suspect that by now I have consume my own body weight in weed, starting in Junior High School, (although I am abstaining now), and I did not ever have schizophrenia symptoms. I have known dozens of chronic, adult weed smokers and I can't think of any who appear to have schizophrenia. Many of them are people who have done quite well and have good jobs. Others are lazy bums, but they are so with or without weed.

I am not recommending weed to anyone who does not like it or want it for any reason. But I will say that without self-medicating with weed, I believe I would be dead by now, especially if I had been driven to drink instead.

Back onto the OPs topic: Young people who smoke more that just to see what all the buzz is about probably have an underlying problem that is not being addressed. If that is your kid, look for the real problem and don't blame the weed.

Jaden
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21 Sep 2014, 1:30 pm

"Using mind altering substances causes user to have a harder time in school", yeah like nobody saw that coming :roll:

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21 Sep 2014, 6:15 pm

Smoking weed makes kids do more poorly huh? ;-)

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22 Sep 2014, 10:27 am

sonofghandi wrote:

AmethystRose wrote:

Cause and effect might be even be reversed, in this case: Doing badly in earlier school grades might contribute to cannabis use in high school.

I would say that all the hard-core stoners I hung out with in high school did poorly the whole way through, long before they they started smoking.

There's some strong documentation that suggest heavy users lose IQ points after long term use...

David Sheff's book, Clean has a great chapter on teen pot use...
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17165919-clean

Quote:

Addiction is a preventable, treatable disease, not a moral failing. As with other illnesses, the approaches most likely to work are based on science ? not on faith, tradition, contrition, or wishful thinking. These facts are the foundation of Clean. The existing addiction treatments, including Twelve Step programs and rehabs, have helped some, but they have failed to help many more. To discover why, David Sheff spent time with scores of scientists, doctors, counselors, and addicts and their families, and explored the latest research in psychology, neuroscience, and medicine. In Clean, he reveals how addiction really works, and how we can combat it.

Totally excellent book. It was required reading in my Addiction and the Family class last year.

As to cause and effect with respect to pot and development of schizophrenia... That's not so clear. I think the self-medicating theory is as plausible as any.

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Jacoby
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22 Sep 2014, 2:28 pm

I probably would of had more friends if I drank and smoked in high school, if I had more friends I probably would of done better in school.

staremaster
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22 Sep 2014, 3:12 pm

I smoked pot in high school. It provided me with some "artificial" friends, but I would not say it affected my academic performance one way or the other (I got good grades).

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22 Sep 2014, 4:07 pm

I think it depends on the particular kid really. I know some kids who just blew off everything and stayed stoned through high school and didn't go to college and just tried to get some kind of blue collar job instead, but I also know some who were honor students and were involved in sports or extracirricular activities and who went on to college and have goals and ambitions and actually pursue them, even though they still smoke weed every day for recreation.

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23 Sep 2014, 11:23 pm

Jacoby wrote:

I probably would of had more friends if I drank and smoked in high school, if I had more friends I probably would of done better in school.

i think this too, occasionally. sharing stories about how they spent their weekend drugged with their friends seems to be a staple of socializing, i feel left out when i can't relate but then again i don't have to deal with the seemingly awful hangovers and nasty coughs and crashes.

self esteem and feelings of companionship and belonging are obviously helpful towards academic achievement, and having a good social web/connections can provide that but it does cap at a certain amount and one may find himself distracted and overwhelmed with all his/her buddies and their plans. but it depends, from person to person and how close they are to their friends. as many of us know, the opposite is true, wallowing through soul crushing depression stemming from loneliness doesn't always crank out straight A's.

many of my friends that have since graduated smoked tobacco for recreation but they also dabbled in marijuana. i also knew some more dedicated stoners that i got along with well but i was not awfully close with them. most of them were two or more years older than me, and i admired their creativity that was reflected in their artwork, regardless of how much of it comes from having an altered state of mind while on drugs.

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opal
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24 Sep 2014, 4:48 am

Jaden wrote:

"Using mind altering substances causes user to have a harder time in school", yeah like nobody saw that coming :roll:

In other news the world is not flat...

Jaden
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24 Sep 2014, 12:15 pm

opal wrote:

Jaden wrote:

"Using mind altering substances causes user to have a harder time in school", yeah like nobody saw that coming :roll:

In other news the world is not flat...

lol yeah and the sun is found to not revolve around the earth

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24 Sep 2014, 11:34 pm

Jaden wrote:

opal wrote:

Jaden wrote:

"Using mind altering substances causes user to have a harder time in school", yeah like nobody saw that coming :roll:

In other news the world is not flat...

lol yeah and the sun is found to not revolve around the earth

Did you know that icebergs were not very good for the Titanic? It sure is amazing what we can find out with modern science.

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