The engineering of the NeuroTypical brain, Autistic brain.

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Do you understand the differences between the "autistic brain" and the "neurotypical brain"?
Yes, after I read this thread. 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
No, this thread is full of stupid and incorrect information, it doesn't fit reality. 39%  39%  [ 7 ]
It's to complicated to understand the differences by reading and researching the scientific data about MRI studies. 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
I've no idea. 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
Yes, but this thread is false. I've a different view (please post your view!) :) 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 18

Norny
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12 Nov 2014, 9:34 am

The nature of these posts make it incredibly hard to reply, because I have no idea what I should be replying to, and I truly feel that a solid solution will not come of it as my post would have to be equally as massive in order to be worthy of discussion. I suggest you split up your ideas into smaller threads (not all at once, say once every few weeks) so that people will bother replying appropriately. I can lay out an example using the autism spectrum for you:

Rather than I make a post about stimming, sensory issues, routines/rituals and meltdowns all in one, it would be more suitable to create a thread that focuses purely on stimming. This way I could provide a clear contention and a narrow topic with which others can work with, without being overwhelmed by information.

engineerbiology wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
There are problems of logic and dodgy premises here, but the thing that stands out most is the absurd definitions of NTs.

NTs are "slity-eyed," selfish, use poor grammar and can't spell?

Seriously?

That's a bunch of crap.


You definitely didn't thought about the subject, but I guess you already have too low guilibility, and don't pass in this aspergian trait, hence you're skeptical of this differences I posted - without doing your own research and observing human beings and make a conclusion yourself. I think you are more interested in saying words like "bunch" "crap", then actually give your honest opinion on what is incorrect, and why the information is incorrect - indirect communication.


On the contrary, it isn't hard to see that it is not 'being NT' or 'being autistic' dictating what a person's bone structure will be. I have previously seen the list you have posted here, and it's nothing different to the anti-vaccine claims - that is, it really is a bunch of crap. The onus isn't on others to disprove such shaky claims, it is on the individual/group presenting them to provide some validity in the first place.

It would be like if I stated that the sky was red, expecting others to scientifically dispute my fantastic finding.


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YippySkippy
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12 Nov 2014, 9:36 am

Quote:
The really sad thing is you accuse me of holding a lecture/being very "bossy", but in reality, this is an asperger trait, and you're like the neurotypicals who accuse me of being different. I never asked your opinion anyway about my differences.


You asked for opinions about your post, and I gave mine. The tone of your post is bossy. I didn't comment on your personality. Also, my opinion that your post is actually a lecture was not a criticism - some people enjoy lectures. Heck, I myself enjoy lectures on topics with which I'm unfamiliar. ASD is not one of those topics, however, and that's why I didn't read the entire, lengthy post.
If I'm blunt, well, that's MY Aspergery trait.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 9:39 am

Norny wrote:
The nature of these posts make it incredibly hard to reply, because I have no idea what I should be replying to, and I truly feel that a solid solution will not come of it as my post would have to be equally as massive in order to be worthy of discussion. I suggest you split up your ideas into smaller threads (not all at once, say once every few weeks) so that people will bother replying appropriately. I can lay out an example using the autism spectrum for you:

Rather than I make a post about stimming, sensory issues, routines/rituals and meltdowns all in one, it would be more suitable to create a thread that focuses purely on stimming. This way I could provide a clear contention and a narrow topic with which others can work with, without being overwhelmed by information.

engineerbiology wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
There are problems of logic and dodgy premises here, but the thing that stands out most is the absurd definitions of NTs.

NTs are "slity-eyed," selfish, use poor grammar and can't spell?

Seriously?

That's a bunch of crap.


You definitely didn't thought about the subject, but I guess you already have too low guilibility, and don't pass in this aspergian trait, hence you're skeptical of this differences I posted - without doing your own research and observing human beings and make a conclusion yourself. I think you are more interested in saying words like "bunch" "crap", then actually give your honest opinion on what is incorrect, and why the information is incorrect - indirect communication.


On the contrary, it isn't hard to see that it is not 'being NT' or 'being autistic' dictating what a person's bone structure will be. I have previously seen the list you have posted here, and it's nothing different to the anti-vaccine claims - that is, it really is a bunch of crap. The onus isn't on others to disprove such shaky claims, it is on the individual/group presenting them to provide some validity in the first place.

It would be like if I stated that the sky was red, expecting others to scientifically dispute my fantastic finding.

Fair opinion, I probably should prove these traits each at a time and in more dept, instead of posting all these traits in one post.

btw, the difference in bonestructure is already been proven by scientific community, but the thing is that NOONE HAS ALL TRAITS OF ONE TYPE, but you can't have NO TRAITS, it's either neurotypical or either aspergian.

Thanks, very constructive criticism.



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12 Nov 2014, 9:42 am

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
The really sad thing is you accuse me of holding a lecture/being very "bossy", but in reality, this is an asperger trait, and you're like the neurotypicals who accuse me of being different. I never asked your opinion anyway about my differences.


You asked for opinions about your post, and I gave mine. The tone of your post is bossy. I didn't comment on your personality. Also, my opinion that your post is actually a lecture was not a criticism - some people enjoy lectures. Heck, I myself enjoy lectures on topics with which I'm unfamiliar. ASD is not one of those topics, however, and that's why I didn't read the entire, lengthy post.
If I'm blunt, well, that's MY Aspergery trait.


Okay, fair.

But being "bossy" is actually something what is seen in people with autism/asperger. Or in different words: very LITERAL and PEDANTIC.

And, I think "bossy" is part of who I am as a person, so it is a personality trait in my opinion.



Last edited by engineerbiology on 12 Nov 2014, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Janissy
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12 Nov 2014, 9:42 am

engineerbiology wrote:
Dwelling preference
NT:Urban
ASD:Rural


I'll try for some constructive criticism.

When you try to divide 7 billion people up into two categories with opposite characteristics, you wind up making easily disproven generalizations.

The above is an example. (But really any could be picked out. I just didn't want to make a gigantic fisked post.) Your choices aren't random. But they also aren't true. Clearly you made this choice based on a combination of your own experience and conversations with other AS people. It's easy to make the observation that lots of AS people say they don't like crowds and lots of NT people say they do and then overgeneralize this into the dichotomy that you just did. However, it's easy to disprove just by talking to rural people. The overwhelming majority of them are NT yet prefer their rural life and don't want to move to the city. The ones who want to...do. It's also easy to disprove by lurking a bit more on WP and realizing that many AS posters here do live in cities and like that just fine.

The lure of the dichotomy has led you away from really thinking through your statements.



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12 Nov 2014, 9:44 am

Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
Dwelling preference
NT:Urban
ASD:Rural


I'll try for some constructive criticism.

When you try to divide 7 billion people up into two categories with opposite characteristics, you wind up making easily disproven generalizations.

The above is an example. (But really any could be picked out. I just didn't want to make a gigantic fisked post.) Your choices aren't random. But they also aren't true. Clearly you made this choice based on a combination of your own experience and conversations with other AS people. It's easy to make the observation that lots of AS people say they don't like crowds and lots of NT people say they do and then overgeneralize this into the dichotomy that you just did. However, it's easy to disprove just by talking to rural people. The overwhelming majority of them are NT yet prefer their rural life and don't want to move to the city. The ones who want to...do. It's also easy to disprove by lurking a bit more on WP and realizing that many AS posters here do live in cities and like that just fine.

The lure of the dichotomy has led you away from really thinking through your statements.


Indeed. The overwhelming majority of people living in rural places are neurotypical.

But you didn't understand what the different traits were in the first place (and why I made it). THE SUM of the traits make you aspergian or neurotypical, NOT one single trait!

Each person has some aspergian traits (even neurotypicals) for example: living in rural places. But that doesn't makes them autistic, isn't it?



Last edited by engineerbiology on 12 Nov 2014, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lukecash12
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12 Nov 2014, 9:46 am

engineerbiology wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
There are problems of logic and dodgy premises here, but the thing that stands out most is the absurd definitions of NTs.

NTs are "slity-eyed," selfish, use poor grammar and can't spell?

Seriously?

That's a bunch of crap.


You definitely didn't thought about the subject, but I guess you already have too low guilibility, and don't pass in this aspergian trait, hence you're skeptical of this differences I posted - without doing your own research and observing human beings and make a conclusion yourself. I think you are more interested in saying words like "bunch" "crap", then actually give your honest opinion on what is incorrect, and why the information is incorrect - indirect communication.

Gullibility traits:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullibility

Btw, this slitty closed trait opposed to wide open trait is also visible at this pictures of people with autism:
http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/is-it-a ... -disorder/


While I understand that those traits are meant to be more of an indication than a definition of either group (of course not all NT's have bad grammar or this or that), what I find problematic here is that you seem to be using polarized comparisons in the traits. A decent portion of those traits only seem to apply to one party, for example grammar skills and formal language in ASD people does not indicate that they are on a scale with the opposite indicating NT.

That and a portion of your criteria for ASD seems to apply more to high functioning autistic people than anyone else on the spectrum, and vice versa when it comes to gullibility for example and using it with those on the high functioning end. Is someone with asperger's syndrome more or less autistic than someone with HFA? Sure, one group's symptoms are clearly more profound but it's hard to come to that kind of conclusion.

Is that helpful at all? Also I'm interested to see this strong correlation between intelligence and empathy you've mentioned because I've never heard of that and would like to do some reading on the subject. Intuitively speaking it would seem to me that highly intelligent people would tend more towards being manipulative and even sociopaths, while those with not so high IQ's I've usually observed as being cooperative and I can think of quite a few examples of people I've known who probably had an IQ of 90-100 who were very emotionally intelligent.


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12 Nov 2014, 9:53 am

engineerbiology wrote:
Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
Dwelling preference
NT:Urban
ASD:Rural


I'll try for some constructive criticism.

When you try to divide 7 billion people up into two categories with opposite characteristics, you wind up making easily disproven generalizations.

The above is an example. (But really any could be picked out. I just didn't want to make a gigantic fisked post.) Your choices aren't random. But they also aren't true. Clearly you made this choice based on a combination of your own experience and conversations with other AS people. It's easy to make the observation that lots of AS people say they don't like crowds and lots of NT people say they do and then overgeneralize this into the dichotomy that you just did. However, it's easy to disprove just by talking to rural people. The overwhelming majority of them are NT yet prefer their rural life and don't want to move to the city. The ones who want to...do. It's also easy to disprove by lurking a bit more on WP and realizing that many AS posters here do live in cities and like that just fine.

The lure of the dichotomy has led you away from really thinking through your statements.


Indeed. The overwhelming majority of people living in rural places are neurotypical.

But you didn't understand what the different traits were in the first place (and why I made it). THE SUM of the traits make you aspergian or neurotypical, NOT one single trait!

Each person has some aspergian traits (even neurotypicals) for example: living in rural places. But that doesn't makes them autistic, isn't it?


You have provided no evidence to back up your claim that preferring rural places is an autistic trait or that preferring urban places is an NT trait. My point in bringing up the NT majority in rural places is that those NT people prefer rural living for their own reasons. It does not mean that they have an autistic trait. You made a bunch of claims that certain things are "autistic" or "NT" traits without any evidence to back up those claims.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 9:57 am

Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
Dwelling preference
NT:Urban
ASD:Rural


I'll try for some constructive criticism.

When you try to divide 7 billion people up into two categories with opposite characteristics, you wind up making easily disproven generalizations.

The above is an example. (But really any could be picked out. I just didn't want to make a gigantic fisked post.) Your choices aren't random. But they also aren't true. Clearly you made this choice based on a combination of your own experience and conversations with other AS people. It's easy to make the observation that lots of AS people say they don't like crowds and lots of NT people say they do and then overgeneralize this into the dichotomy that you just did. However, it's easy to disprove just by talking to rural people. The overwhelming majority of them are NT yet prefer their rural life and don't want to move to the city. The ones who want to...do. It's also easy to disprove by lurking a bit more on WP and realizing that many AS posters here do live in cities and like that just fine.

The lure of the dichotomy has led you away from really thinking through your statements.


Indeed. The overwhelming majority of people living in rural places are neurotypical.

But you didn't understand what the different traits were in the first place (and why I made it). THE SUM of the traits make you aspergian or neurotypical, NOT one single trait!

Each person has some aspergian traits (even neurotypicals) for example: living in rural places. But that doesn't makes them autistic, isn't it?


You have provided no evidence to back up your claim that preferring rural places is an autistic trait or that preferring urban places is an NT trait. My point in bringing up the NT majority in rural places is that those NT people prefer rural living for their own reasons. It does not mean that they have an autistic trait. You made a bunch of claims that certain things are "autistic" or "NT" traits without any evidence to back up those claims.


Actually, many scientific articles found that in rural areas their are more autistic people, even on some islands.
Which results in the fact that more aspergian live in rural areas, and as a consequence, less neurotypical people live in rural areas.



Last edited by engineerbiology on 12 Nov 2014, 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Janissy
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12 Nov 2014, 9:57 am

engineerbiology wrote:
btw, the difference in bonestructure is already been proven by scientific community, but the thing is that NOONE HAS ALL TRAITS OF ONE TYPE, but you can't have NO TRAITS, it's either neurotypical or either aspergian.
.


It was one study with a very small sample size and you badly mischaracterized it.

The study:

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... m-severity

{quote}Specifically, boys with autism have broader faces and mouths, flatter noses, narrower cheeks and a shorter philtrum ? the cleft between the lips and nose ? compared with controls, according to the three-dimensional facial imaging system used in the study. These distinctive features suggest that certain embryonic processes that give rise to facial features are perturbed during development, the researchers say.{/quote}

Your mischaracterization:
Quote:
Eyes
NT:Slitty, closed partway
ASD:Open wide


Is it any wonder Adamantium said "crap"? You aren't thinking these things through and you are overly dichotomizing.
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12 Nov 2014, 10:00 am

Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
btw, the difference in bonestructure is already been proven by scientific community, but the thing is that NOONE HAS ALL TRAITS OF ONE TYPE, but you can't have NO TRAITS, it's either neurotypical or either aspergian.
.


It was one study with a very small sample size and you badly mischaracterized it.

The study:

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... m-severity

{quote}Specifically, boys with autism have broader faces and mouths, flatter noses, narrower cheeks and a shorter philtrum ? the cleft between the lips and nose ? compared with controls, according to the three-dimensional facial imaging system used in the study. These distinctive features suggest that certain embryonic processes that give rise to facial features are perturbed during development, the researchers say.{/quote}

Your mischaracterization:
Quote:
Eyes
NT:Slitty, closed partway
ASD:Open wide


Is it any wonder Adamantium said "crap"? You aren't thinking these things through and you are overly dichotomizing.
--


Their are many more examples in bone structures, and of course these traits are simplified to all encompass the data.

But you don't understand it I think.

Look at the wide variety in eye openings of skulls.

Homo sapiens sapiens:

Image

http://www.photaki.com/picture-homo-sap ... 454264.htm
http://www.boneclones.com/images/bh-045-lg.jpg
http://australianmuseum.net.au/image/Li ... gled-view/

Neanderthal:
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/coll ... index.html
http://eavice.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/bh030.jpg

Image



Last edited by engineerbiology on 12 Nov 2014, 10:14 am, edited 4 times in total.

Janissy
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12 Nov 2014, 10:04 am

engineerbiology wrote:
Actually, many scientific articles found that in rural areas their are more autistic people, even on some islands.
Which results in the fact that more aspergian live in rural areas, and as a consequence, less neurotypical people live in rural areas.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23807204

Quote:
Abstract
The etiology of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) is for the majority of cases unknown and more studies of risk factors are needed. Geographic variation in ASD occurrence has been observed, and urban residence has been suggested to serve as a proxy for etiologic and identification factors in ASD. We examined the association between urbanicity level and ASD at birth and during childhood. The study used a Danish register-based cohort of more than 800,000 children of which nearly 4,000 children were diagnosed with ASD. We found a dose-response association with greater level of urbanicity and risk of ASD. This association was found for residence at birth as well as residence during childhood. Further, we found an increased risk of ASD in children who moved to a higher level of urbanicity after birth. Also, earlier age of ASD diagnosis in urban areas was observed. While we could not directly examine the specific reasons behind these associations, our results demonstrating particularly strong associations between ASD diagnosis and post-birth migration suggest the influence of identification-related factors such as access to services might have a substantive role on the ASD differentials we observed.
PMID: 23807204 [PubMed - in process]


This study shows the exact opposite- more ASD in urban areas. It may be that the urban AS person has greater odds of being diagnosed. Or it may not. But in either case it goes against rural preference as an AS trait.



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12 Nov 2014, 10:08 am

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... nce-autism

Quote:
Overall, the studies underscore the difficulty of identifying reliable risk markers for autism, as the molecular underpinnings of the disorder can vary widely from person to person.

?Lately there?s been this backlash against the notion that there?s abnormal brain enlargement in autism at all,? says Christine Nordahl, assistant professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of California, Davis. Nordahl led the 2011 study but was not involved in the new work. ?I think that one thing that people are missing is the heterogeneity of the disorder.?


Your own link offered in support of the slitty eyed NT theory shows nothing of the kind but does make a very different point http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/is-it-a ... sorder/10/
Quote:
Dr. Aldridge says that with the funny facial expression and angle at which this photo was taken, it's hard to tell that he has the distinguishing facial characteristics. This is evidence that while children with autism share similar facial features, they don't look drastically different from those without the disorder.


There is solid evidence for physical markers that may be related to autism in a tiny minority of cases, such as individuals with CHD8 variations, but the data is too thin to draw meaningful conclusions. When a broader sample has been studied for this mutation, then some useful conclusions may be drawn, maybe.
http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... sm-subtype

Since you found my brief description of your characterization of NT and ASD traits confusing, let me restate it in different terms: your descriptions of NTs are false in many details and this is obvious even on a very quick read through. Your statements about ASD are also mostly false. Given this, I won't be looking too deeply into the rest of your model. It can't be valid, because it rests on terrible premises.



Last edited by Adamantium on 12 Nov 2014, 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 10:08 am

Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
Actually, many scientific articles found that in rural areas their are more autistic people, even on some islands.
Which results in the fact that more aspergian live in rural areas, and as a consequence, less neurotypical people live in rural areas.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23807204

Quote:
Abstract
The etiology of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) is for the majority of cases unknown and more studies of risk factors are needed. Geographic variation in ASD occurrence has been observed, and urban residence has been suggested to serve as a proxy for etiologic and identification factors in ASD. We examined the association between urbanicity level and ASD at birth and during childhood. The study used a Danish register-based cohort of more than 800,000 children of which nearly 4,000 children were diagnosed with ASD. We found a dose-response association with greater level of urbanicity and risk of ASD. This association was found for residence at birth as well as residence during childhood. Further, we found an increased risk of ASD in children who moved to a higher level of urbanicity after birth. Also, earlier age of ASD diagnosis in urban areas was observed. While we could not directly examine the specific reasons behind these associations, our results demonstrating particularly strong associations between ASD diagnosis and post-birth migration suggest the influence of identification-related factors such as access to services might have a substantive role on the ASD differentials we observed.
PMID: 23807204 [PubMed - in process]


This study shows the exact opposite- more ASD in urban areas. It may be that the urban AS person has greater odds of being diagnosed. Or it may not. But in either case it goes against rural preference as an AS trait.


Of course, some studies show the opposite.

It's the same with early brain growth in autism. Some studies show excessive brain growth others the opposite, but there is always something visible in the majority of the cases.



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12 Nov 2014, 10:10 am

Slightly off-topic, but how does one have a wide face and narrow cheeks? :?
I can't picture that, and the one photo in the article didn't help.