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DentArthurDent
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13 Dec 2014, 7:34 pm

Claims of self evident truths and common sense have been thrown around glibly recently, which made me wonder of all the previous self evident truths that have been debunked over the centuries. So I thought I might start a list which you can all add to.

To start the ball rolling

Stationary Earth: 3 bright minds in the 5 and 4 centuries bce had the idea that the earth might spin on its axis but were shouted down as ridiculous due to the self evident truth that if the earth was spinning nothing would be stable and we would see it in action.

Planets and sun revolve around the earth: Yet another self evident truth, which required the most elaborate systems to maintain its status in scholastic thought

The motion of the cosmos has an effect not only on a persons characteristics, but can also predict the near future

God created all life in its present form

atmospheric events are the acts of gods

The solar system is the extent of the heavens

The milky way is the extent of the universe

The only planets are those in our solar system

Disease is the act of a god

The continents do not move

Time is uniform

Only 3 dimensions exist

Waiting in the wings to be debunked
There is only one universe.
Causation must come from god.


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aghogday
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13 Dec 2014, 10:10 pm

There is no refrigerator theory of Autism.

Yes, that has been debunked, in part, as science now shows that human beings who do not receive LOVE FROM Nurturing Caregivers during the first two years of life ARE NOT WIRED FOR PRO-SOCIAL EMPATHY, INCLUDING OXYTOCIN CONNECTION WITH OTHERS THAT MOTIVATES Social Bonding with others.

Of course it is NOT THE cause of all Autism Spectrum Disorders but the symptoms are indistinguishable IN REAL LIFE as they are with Bonobos or Chimpanzees who do not receive this type of nurturing in the first two years of life, except for the FACT that Bonobos and Chimpanzees cannot be professionally diagnosed as this is a so-called human only disorder.

And obviously one can see this with domesticated animals as well, as kittens raised together through adulthood cuddle with each other while outside cats for the most part who maintain a life of greater isolation become loners, overall, and will not cuddle with other cats.

And yes, this is politically incorrect to say this like at one time it was to contradict the church on the flat earth thingy, but never the less, when there is not abuse but still the ignoring of children who are raised by electronic devices instead of flesh and blood humans that ultimate EFFFECT AND AFFECT is indistinguishable, per report of clinicians today who are diagnosing specialists.

Okay, that's one.

Number two:

Autism Speaks is a Eugenics organization trying to eliminate Autistic PEOPLE from the face of the earth.

Yes, that has been debunked too.


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14 Dec 2014, 8:11 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Claims of self evident truths and common sense have been thrown around glibly recently, which made me wonder of all the previous self evident truths that have been debunked over the centuries. So I thought I might start a list which you can all add to.

To start the ball rolling

Stationary Earth: 3 bright minds in the 5 and 4 centuries bce had the idea that the earth might spin on its axis but were shouted down as ridiculous due to the self evident truth that if the earth was spinning nothing would be stable and we would see it in action.

Planets and sun revolve around the earth: Yet another self evident truth, which required the most elaborate systems to maintain its status in scholastic thought

The motion of the cosmos has an effect not only on a persons characteristics, but can also predict the near future

God created all life in its present form

atmospheric events are the acts of gods

The solar system is the extent of the heavens

The milky way is the extent of the universe

The only planets are those in our solar system

Disease is the act of a god

The continents do not move

Time is uniform

Only 3 dimensions exist

Waiting in the wings to be debunked
There is only one universe.
Causation must come from god.
None of the above Qualify as self-evident truths, Arty.

A self-evident truth is one where a statement or proposition has no alternative other than its contrary and the contrary is self-contradictory and thus absurd. A prime example of which is: "I exist"



DentArthurDent
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14 Dec 2014, 9:12 am

David once again you fail to get the point. Of course they are not self evident truths, which is why they have all been debunked, however THEY WERE seen as self evident truths.


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14 Dec 2014, 9:31 am

"giving government welfare helps the unemployed people"

I'm not taking a stand. Just saying it might be one of those things. "giving beggars money helps beggars" is another one, perhaps even more controversial and for a lot of people impenetrable as a topic of discussion.



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14 Dec 2014, 10:57 am

^^^

Nah, science shows that even Chimps have traits of Altruism.

Lending a helping hand is part of 'our', per most folks, GENETICS FOR evolutionary effect and AFFECT.

AND THAT AFFECT IS FOR EFFECT OF survival of the species as whole, not just a relatively few selfish folks.

But true, an almost impenetrable topic for those without true species effect of altruistic AFFECT.

And I do note that you are not taking a stand on either side of this coin of TRUE EFFECT OF THE AFFECT OF a human helping hand for those who need a little subsistence HELP to get by in life.

Even Lions do that for the 'lesser' hunters among the PRIDE.

And again, true, some humans who are not properly nurtured and loved in childhood by the village as IT WERE and as IT IS still evolved to be, when working in balance, FALL TO THESE SELFISH WAYS OF LIFE OF refusing to give to others less successful in the hunt for subsistence..

OR for those folks who lose that AFFECT OF HUMAN POTENTIAL through the LACK OF SOCIAL COGNITION INTELLIGENCE INCREASING activities through life, AND OR REPRESSION AND OPPRESSION THEREOF this natural innate human unconditional loving potential, CAN rarely UNDERSTAND THIS without great effort of adaptation to positive social cognition change, AS teaching empathy to a heartless human being CAN BE like 'putting lipstick on a PIG' and expecting it to look 'pretty'.

It takes more work than that, and HARD WORK AT THAT.

Science has never ever shown that a social animal that does not get subsistence help when it needs it, from other social animals, is at a disadvantage FOR survival as evolution evolves the species to evolve as whole when the species is a social animal.

So in FACTUAL EFFECT OF AFFECT THE LINES ABOVE, ARE ALREADY PROVEN AS EVOLUTIONARY TRUTH AS IS by science.

And at least for me, it's hard to imagine that another person could even imagine that TRUTH AS DEBUNK-ABLE per the larger world of Social Animal common sense.

I DO NOT NEED SCIENCE to know AND FEEL the true AFFECT OF Unconditional Social Animal Love that is seen throughout the animal kingdom and even beyond the so-called social animals that DOES exist FOR those who have the social animal instinct of THIS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR survival of the entire 'herd/heard' of species and not just a relative minority of selfish 'turds' or other words of rhyme of FACT.


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14 Dec 2014, 11:07 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
David once again you fail to get the point. Of course they are not self evident truths, which is why they have all been debunked, however THEY WERE seen as self evident truths.
No more than our Materialist's proposed "everyone knows" kind of self-evident "truths" then?

Arty, the kind of self-evident truths that I am saying are a necessary basis for all rational enquiry are the fundamentals... the kind, without which, any science is impossible because there is no consistency anywhere. Without consistency there can be no science.

Most irksomely, contemporary fad "science" demands inconsistency.



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14 Dec 2014, 11:11 am

aghogday wrote:
^^^

I can't reply. I don't know what you're getting at.



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14 Dec 2014, 11:14 am

"All Men Are Created Equal" has to be the biggest dumpload of bullsnot ever perpetrated on the common people. Either that, or it's been so badly distorted by subjective interpretations through the centuries that it has lost its original meaning.


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14 Dec 2014, 11:28 am

aghogday wrote:
^^^

Nah, science shows that even Chimps have traits of Altruism.

Lending a helping hand is part of 'our', per most folks, GENETICS FOR evolutionary effect and AFFECT.

AND THAT AFFECT IS FOR EFFECT OF survival of the species as whole, not just a relatively few selfish folks.

But true, an almost impenetrable topic for those without true species effect of altruistic AFFECT.

And I do note that you are not taking a stand on either side of this coin of TRUE EFFECT OF THE AFFECT OF a human helping hand for those who need a little subsistence HELP to get by in life.

Even Lions do that for the 'lesser' hunters among the PRIDE.

And again, true, some humans who are not properly nurtured and loved in childhood by the village as IT WERE and as IT IS still evolved to be, when working in balance, FALL TO THESE SELFISH WAYS OF LIFE OF refusing to give to others less successful in the hunt for subsistence..

OR for those folks who lose that AFFECT OF HUMAN POTENTIAL through the LACK OF SOCIAL COGNITION INTELLIGENCE INCREASING activities through life, AND OR REPRESSION AND OPPRESSION THEREOF this natural innate human unconditional loving potential, CAN rarely UNDERSTAND THIS without great effort of adaptation to positive social cognition change, AS teaching empathy to a heartless human being CAN BE like 'putting lipstick on a PIG' and expecting it to look 'pretty'.

It takes more work than that, and HARD WORK AT THAT.

Science has never ever shown that a social animal that does not get subsistence help when it needs it, from other social animals, is at a disadvantage FOR survival as evolution evolves the species to evolve as whole when the species is a social animal.

So in FACTUAL EFFECT OF AFFECT THE LINES ABOVE, ARE ALREADY PROVEN AS EVOLUTIONARY TRUTH AS IS by science.

And at least for me, it's hard to imagine that another person could even imagine that TRUTH AS DEBUNK-ABLE per the larger world of Social Animal common sense.

I DO NOT NEED SCIENCE to know AND FEEL the true AFFECT OF Unconditional Social Animal Love that is seen throughout the animal kingdom and even beyond the so-called social animals that DOES exist FOR those who have the social animal instinct of THIS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR survival of the entire 'herd/heard' of species and not just a relative minority of selfish 'turds' or other words of rhyme of FACT.
I didn't say it had been debunked, I said it might be one of those things, meaning it might have been debunked or it might be debunked in the future. You showed that it is common sense or self-evident truth to you, and that's what I meant, that people do not even want to discuss it. I have tried, and it is almost impossible. I am not interested in pushing any view, I have merely tried to have an emotionally detached purely intellectual discussion about it on other forums, but it appears to be one of those subjects where most people are totally unable to have such a discussion. That's how most of those self-evident truths were dealed with before they were debunked, thus they were viewed as just that; self-evident.



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14 Dec 2014, 3:26 pm

Oldavid wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
David once again you fail to get the point. Of course they are not self evident truths, which is why they have all been debunked, however THEY WERE seen as self evident truths.
No more than our Materialist's proposed "everyone knows" kind of self-evident "truths" then?

Provide proof that even a large minority of materialists go by a maxim similar to "we know everything there is to know" This is nothing but a canard used by the delusional creationist lobby in a futile attempt to shout down rational evidence based thought.

Fnord, nice example.


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14 Dec 2014, 5:00 pm

tomato wrote:
aghogday wrote:
^^^

Nah, science shows that even Chimps have traits of Altruism.

Lending a helping hand is part of 'our', per most folks, GENETICS FOR evolutionary effect and AFFECT.

AND THAT AFFECT IS FOR EFFECT OF survival of the species as whole, not just a relatively few selfish folks.

But true, an almost impenetrable topic for those without true species effect of altruistic AFFECT.

And I do note that you are not taking a stand on either side of this coin of TRUE EFFECT OF THE AFFECT OF a human helping hand for those who need a little subsistence HELP to get by in life.

Even Lions do that for the 'lesser' hunters among the PRIDE.

And again, true, some humans who are not properly nurtured and loved in childhood by the village as IT WERE and as IT IS still evolved to be, when working in balance, FALL TO THESE SELFISH WAYS OF LIFE OF refusing to give to others less successful in the hunt for subsistence..

OR for those folks who lose that AFFECT OF HUMAN POTENTIAL through the LACK OF SOCIAL COGNITION INTELLIGENCE INCREASING activities through life, AND OR REPRESSION AND OPPRESSION THEREOF this natural innate human unconditional loving potential, CAN rarely UNDERSTAND THIS without great effort of adaptation to positive social cognition change, AS teaching empathy to a heartless human being CAN BE like 'putting lipstick on a PIG' and expecting it to look 'pretty'.

It takes more work than that, and HARD WORK AT THAT.

Science has never ever shown that a social animal that does not get subsistence help when it needs it, from other social animals, is at a disadvantage FOR survival as evolution evolves the species to evolve as whole when the species is a social animal.

So in FACTUAL EFFECT OF AFFECT THE LINES ABOVE, ARE ALREADY PROVEN AS EVOLUTIONARY TRUTH AS IS by science.

And at least for me, it's hard to imagine that another person could even imagine that TRUTH AS DEBUNK-ABLE per the larger world of Social Animal common sense.

I DO NOT NEED SCIENCE to know AND FEEL the true AFFECT OF Unconditional Social Animal Love that is seen throughout the animal kingdom and even beyond the so-called social animals that DOES exist FOR those who have the social animal instinct of THIS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR survival of the entire 'herd/heard' of species and not just a relative minority of selfish 'turds' or other words of rhyme of FACT.
I didn't say it had been debunked, I said it might be one of those things, meaning it might have been debunked or it might be debunked in the future. You showed that it is common sense or self-evident truth to you, and that's what I meant, that people do not even want to discuss it. I have tried, and it is almost impossible. I am not interested in pushing any view, I have merely tried to have an emotionally detached purely intellectual discussion about it on other forums, but it appears to be one of those subjects where most people are totally unable to have such a discussion. That's how most of those self-evident truths were dealed with before they were debunked, thus they were viewed as just that; self-evident.


Yes, as I stated and noted by the common metaphor that you are not on either side of the coin, I HEARD your statement that you are not taking sides on the issue.

However, some people are actually lacking in human empathy enough to actually believe that this most basic of innate human empathy attributes for the survival of the human species can be debunked AND humanity JUST happens to be my current all-encompassing special interest. :)


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14 Dec 2014, 5:05 pm

Oldavid wrote:
aghogday wrote:
^^^

I can't reply. I don't know what you're getting at.


Thanks for the thought and I hold out hope that you will be one of the ones to teach me something new on this site, sincerely speaking, as again, I find you as a hopeful out of the box prospect for that. :)


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14 Dec 2014, 5:20 pm

aghogday wrote:
Yes, as I stated and noted by the common metaphor that you are not on either side of the coin, I HEARD your statement that you are not taking sides on the issue.

However, some people are actually lacking in human empathy enough to actually believe that this most basic of innate human empathy attributes for the survival of the human species can be debunked AND humanity JUST happens to be my current all-encompassing special interest. :)

Not to go into a long discussion here in a thread that perhaps was intended to be more of a list, but I think that you might be talking about something slightly different from what I meant by my initial statements. I didn't mean anything regarding empathy or lack of empathy really. Just whether or not government welfare actually helps unemployed people or if it is doing them a disservice and the same thing with giving beggars money. Again, I don't want to have a long discussion about this here, but what I meant by that issue is for example the view that some hold that every dollar spent on government welfare is a dollar taken from someone as tax, and a dollar that could instead have payed for a service that the unemployed person worked to provide. Thus the government welfare being indirectly what created the lack of employment.



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14 Dec 2014, 6:31 pm

A long discussion is not required.

The Nordic model of a balanced mix of free market capitalism and social welfare state is proof in the pudding per the health of the resulting societies that social welfare works.

The folks in the U.S. just do NOT have enough basic human empathy to GIVE what it takes to make it work.

In other words there are too many non-reformed Grinches that live here. :)


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