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TwinRuler
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23 Dec 2014, 6:52 pm

From what I gather, Simon Baron--Cohen is prejudiced against Asperger sufferers.



Jono
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26 Dec 2014, 10:31 am

TwinRuler wrote:
From what I gather, Simon Baron--Cohen is prejudiced against Asperger sufferers.


No, he's not actually. As far as I know, he's been a supporter of our neurodiversity movement. Unless you're talking about that book that he wrote on empathy, which has been misinterpreted.



o0iella
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28 Dec 2014, 9:55 am

Apparently he "witholds diagnosis" from people who "meet the criteria for ASD, but appear to be "coping in life". This re-inforces the deficit model of autism.



AspieUtah
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28 Dec 2014, 10:39 am

o0iella wrote:
Apparently he "witholds diagnosis" from people who "meet the criteria for ASD, but appear to be "coping in life". This re-inforces the deficit model of autism.

"Congratulations! You cured yourself of your AS characteristics and don't have AS." Uh-huh. Been there done that.

But, I was unaware that Baron-Cohen believed that opinion despite his empathy notes.


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Jono
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28 Dec 2014, 6:15 pm

o0iella wrote:
Apparently he "witholds diagnosis" from people who "meet the criteria for ASD, but appear to be "coping in life". This re-inforces the deficit model of autism.


Um, the point of having a diagnostic category in the DSM is to offer support to people who need it. If someone has some traits and symptoms of ASD but there is no interference in everyday functioning at all, then by definition, it's subclinical and a diagnosis is not needed. Even if you look at the DSM V criteria, one of the criteria is actually that the symptoms must cause some interference with everyday functioning in order to get the diagnosis. In any case, how do you define "coping in life"? The majority of people with ASD who seem to be coping to a large extent, do so with coping mechanisms like learning social skills from a cognitive point of view when most other people know them intuitively and this itself counts in the DSM as an interference with everyday functioning because then those people need accommodations for the coping mechanisms. I can also know for a fact that Simon-Baron Cohen actually does still diagnose people with ASD if they're using such coping mechanisms to function better.



AspieUtah
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28 Dec 2014, 6:30 pm

Jono wrote:
...The majority of people with ASD who seem to be coping to a large extent, do so with coping mechanisms like learning social skills from a cognitive point of view when most other people know them intuitively and this itself counts in the DSM as an interference with everyday functioning because then those people need accommodations for the coping mechanisms. I can also know for a fact that Simon-Baron Cohen actually does still diagnose people with ASD if they're using such coping mechanisms to function better.

That is good to know. In my case, my diagnostician did actually say what I quoted previously. It didn't figure then, and still doesn't now. But, I realized all along that it was very likely anomalous. Thanks for confirming that fact for me. :D


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o0iella
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29 Dec 2014, 4:53 pm

I think the autistic community needs to find a way of identifying people on the spectrum. Leaving in the hands of medical professionals who only focus on those who are impaired in life means there are many who are unidentified.



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29 Dec 2014, 10:13 pm

o0iella wrote:
I think the autistic community needs to find a way of identifying people on the spectrum. Leaving in the hands of medical professionals who only focus on those who are impaired in life means there are many who are unidentified.


I don't know. It seems that most of the "autistic community" feel trivialized or worse by people who have autistic traits but are not impaired.


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o0iella
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30 Dec 2014, 10:03 am

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I don't know. It seems that most of the "autistic community" feel trivialized or worse by people who have autistic traits but are not impaired.


How is that an argument for people on autistic spectrum to remain unidentified.

Autism is more than "impairments". Myself and many other people feel trivialised or worse by people who lump all of autism under "impairments".



AspieUtah
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30 Dec 2014, 10:41 am

o0iella wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I think the autistic community needs to find a way of identifying people on the spectrum. Leaving in the hands of medical professionals who only focus on those who are impaired in life means there are many who are unidentified.

How is that an argument for people on autistic spectrum to remain unidentified.

Autism is more than "impairments". Myself and many other people feel trivialised or worse by people who lump all of autism under "impairments".

I certainly feel that way under the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria. Others have suggested that the criteria's use of the word "deficit" isn't as restrictive as I consider it to be. For the more enlightened diagnostician, their suggestion would probably make sense. For too many others, in my opinion, it would probably reinforce their reluctance to diagnose individuals who present deficits which, among adults who have learned adaptation (masking) skills, appear mild. I have written elsewhere about the inaccuracies that I believe are caused by the criteria that appear to value quantitative deficits over qualitative deficits.


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31 Dec 2014, 3:14 am

o0iella wrote:
Quote:
I don't know. It seems that most of the "autistic community" feel trivialized or worse by people who have autistic traits but are not impaired.


How is that an argument for people on autistic spectrum to remain unidentified.

Autism is more than "impairments". Myself and many other people feel trivialised or worse by people who lump all of autism under "impairments".


It is not. It is an argument that taking autism out of the hands of medical people and making it an autistic only decision might not make things better. With all the "my autism is the only real autism thinking" here I am somewhat convinced that it would make things worse. I have seen so many newbie "Am I autistic" posters dismissed as just socially awkward when in their posts or upon further questioning other autistic traits are there. I just want people diagnosing who are good diagnosing and whose understanding of Autism is beyond the 1960's and the medical model. If they have that understanding I don't care what their neurology or background is.


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o0iella
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31 Dec 2014, 9:01 am

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I just want people diagnosing who are good diagnosing and whose understanding of Autism is beyond the 1960's and the medical model. If they have that understanding I don't care what their neurology or background is.


If medical professionals have a monopoly on identifying Autism, then the perception of Autism won't evolve beyond the medical model. I do agree though that a person should have rigorous training, and observe the persons behaviour for a long time before coming to a conclusion.



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12 Jan 2015, 9:45 pm

Right....
I'm coming out of the closet on this thread!! ! :evil:
I don't care if i'm flamed or if it's the last time i post here but i HAVE to say my piece on Baron Cohen.
I was going to start a thread asking about CLASS and if anyone had been assessed there but was too frightened too.
I'm 50 and i'm too shy to post here so please be kind. :oops:
I was assessed by Baron Cohen at CLASS 10yrs ago.
And i too watched Baron Cohen on Channel 4 News state "we sometimes decline diagnosis where we feel the patient have a successful and rewarding life".
That's may be great if you do BUT I DO NOT!! !!
I knew very little about Autism and had never heard of Aspergers.
I had started a new job as a support worker for 18yr old lads with this thing called Aspergers.
We had NO training about it etc.
I was SHOCKED by how similar i was to a lad that i was a named supporter for.
Silly things like watching the same movie day after day,playing one track off and album for hours,wearing exactly the same clothes every day.
Noises being LOUD!!
Tesco being hideous.
Shying away from strangers.
Not looking people in the eye.
Obsessed about the Beatles.
Blablablabla.

There was nothing about that lad that was any different to me other than he pee'd in his wardrobe and he was too detached from reality to live an unsupported life,his obsessions utterly ruled his life.
So i asked the manager for info on Aspergers.
A quick look through this little scrap of paper and i realized it was me.
Completely me!! !
It answered ALL the reasons why my life had been an absolute failure to that point.

Why i had to be force fed for 2yrs as a baby,got concave ribs because of vitamin deficiencies.
Hid under tables at school and parties,never spoke to anyone.
Was beaten by my father for being such a failure.
Played in the woods and rivers on my own rather than cow boys and indians.
Pulled apart every mechanical object in the house and the only one i couldnt fix was my dads watch lol. :mrgreen:
Was put into a remedial class at junior school as i refused to speak AT ALL.
Found to have a high IQ at 10 when sent to a Psychologist.
Never had any friends but that didn't bother me,feck them,bunch of bullies,picked on all my life so retreated from anything to do with people.

Come 16 and i found booze,tolerated getting my first friends.
No booze forget it,never went out.
Found spliff and could socialize even better but was ALLWAYS utterly painfull.
Lost job after job after job.
Bullied at every job.
Sociopathic bosses!! !! ! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Started lashing out at people at 25.
Got into fights.
Didn't know i was having meltdowns.
Just hid everything from everyone,total silence living in HELL!! !
Realised i was depressed and suffered from anxiety all of my life.

Had girlfriends but they didn't last long.
Right here we go and i don't care,hopefully this may help some folks but....
Lost girlfriends cos i couldn't do "the job"! !! !!
Wasn't untill i was 40 and reading the leaflet about Aspergers that i found the bit about not liking to be touched,not being able to express emotion blablabla.
I wanted someone close but didn't know what to do,an utter mystery and misery and i wasn't a bad looking dude,never had problems with girls approaching me but i NEVER approached them!

So i went to my GP and he referred me.
I had started seeing the only girl that ever accepted me 3yrs before the referral.
She was a 98%er.

Quote:
http://www.aspiestrategy.com/2012/11/aspergers-and-partners-98-percenter.html

And for the first time in my life i seemed happy and could cope but still needed HER there to go out and still could not cope with any social functions and STILL had bad anxiety.

So i get to my referral in tow with my mother and future wife.
I still had done no real research about the nuances or a lot of the basics.
I got these scores according to CLASS
AQ of 42 Max 50 - 80% of AS get 32 or more.
EQ of 17 Max 80 - 80% of AS get 30 or less.

In the interview they did NOT even follow their own guidelines!! !
The Adult Asperger Assessment (AAA): A Diagnostic Method,
Here it is in PDF format.

Quote:
www.researchgate.net/...The_Adult_Asperger_Assessment...diagnostic_...


There should have been 2 Professionals.
"The AAA was administered by a team comprising either a consultant clinical psychologist (SBC) or consultant psychiatrist (MWS) and a clinical psychologist (JR) in the team. Two professionals were involved in every assessment. Each patient was accompanied by at least one parent as an informant. In the case of those patients with a partner, the partner was also invited to the assessment to act as an
additional informant.
Each area in the AAA was probed, in order to collect a range of anecdotal examples of a specific kind, from the patient’s life, either from self-report or via the informant(s). Each AAA interview took on average 3 hours, including collecting early developmental history information about the patient, information about the patient’s
educational history, occupational history, medical history, family factors, and to allow time for feedback
on the diagnosis."

But there was only one Professional and my partner was NOT questioned.
The interview lasted 1 hour and was the most superficial rubbish imaginable!
My mother was put on the spot to defend her mothering techniques and lied bless her.
She tried her best to defend me as "normal" with "yes he did like to play" when asked specifically if i "joined in group imaginative play". I did a couple of times when forced to by my mother but was picked on and punched and walk off into the woods on my bl**dy own!! !
I don't feel any resentment to her about that.
The "early developmental history information and the educational history was an utter joke.
There was NO "occupational history,medical history or family factors".
It was an utter travesty!!
I could ripp the diagnosis to shreds using the "Adult Asperger Assessment (AAA): A Diagnostic Method".
I could quote section after section that is utter rubbish with regards to me.

So under the AAA diagnostic Criteria i failed because i missed 2 points under the Social Domain A and 1 in E-I Prerequisites.
Now if anyone cares to look at section A2,A4 and A5 of the PDF you will see what is required to "Meet The Criteria For Aspergers". They are listed such A2 "prefers to do things on own rather than with others (AQ1).
Here's the crunch.
I have EXACTLY WHAT IS IN THEIR EXAMPLES!! !
All of it.
Now i know some will say "it's just an example".
But here's the icing on the cake for me and probably what makes me the MOST angry
as it is just so blatantly wrong and a fraud and a travesty.

"Section F - The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social,occupational or other important
areas of functioning.

The problems noted above have interfered with the patients life by causing depression,social isolation,difficulties at work and school and an inability to attain lifes goal.
NO"
NO!! !! !! !
Now did i miss something here?
So as far as CLASS is concerned my life is hunky dory?
Hurray!! !! !! !!
I'll go and tell the wife.....
oh s**t she left me last year.
I know i'll tell my work colleagues...
Damn,i had a meltdown 2 1/2yrs ago and attacked my sociopathic boss and got sacked and haven't worked since...
Oh wait...i'll tell my friends.....
Yep,you guessed it,the cupboard is bare.

This is NO sob story.
This is to warn ANYONE going to CLASS to go prepared.
10yrs ago i put the Aspergers label in the bin and forgot about it.
That was it,i'm just a retarded,inadequate fool.
Since then i lost 3 jobs in all but it was after the last one 2 1/2 yrs ago i actually found out what a Meltdown was!! !
Can you believe that i only found out what a Meltdown was 8yrs after going for an assessment.

So i started looking up forums like this and Aspie Central.
I i realised just how many other traits or idiosyncrasies i have.
I supposed one of the most shocking realizations i had was how i was actually oblivious to behaviours i have always had and HID form everyone.

The worst was punching myself,biting myself and headbutting walls and other stuff.
I honestly,till i came on here,thought it was because my father used to beat me as a child.
Maybe it is but it's still a jigsaw piece that fills out the picture.
I wail but mask it by then singing a tune that starts with that tone.
On and on.
Blablabla!! !

How i'm jealous of how well some of you guys get on,even just posting on a forum.
I'm gonna need to hide after posting this.
I wont say how i am now i cant talk about that but it's not good.

Peace Friends.



o0iella
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13 Jan 2015, 7:34 am

Quote:
And i too watched Baron Cohen on Channel 4 News state "we sometimes decline diagnosis where we feel the patient have a successful and rewarding life".



Well doesn't that just show how unethical he is.



AspieUtah
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13 Jan 2015, 11:05 am

o0iella wrote:
Quote:
And i too watched Baron Cohen on Channel 4 News state "we sometimes decline diagnosis where we feel the patient have a successful and rewarding life".

Well doesn't that just show how unethical he is.

Baron-Cohen's statement is surprising to me. I wonder if it was said editorially as in "we [as a diagnostic industry] sometimes decline diagnosis [mistakenly and unnecessarily]...." That would certainly be true. I don't mean to apologize or try to protect him. He has impressed me that he is a better clinician than his statement in support of the disease model suggests he is, so I am surprised.

I can certainly relate to the feeling of receiving a botched diagnosis. Such diagnoses happen. I moved on with the evidence that I have and accept what it implies in my life. Maybe, when I meet another diagnostician who I feel knows his or her profession well, I might seek another bite at the diagnostic apple. We will see.


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Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)