Terrorist attack in France
11 Jan 2015, 3:09 pm
ZenDen wrote:
This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.
You have in no way convinced me otherwise.
You have in no way convinced me otherwise.
Seriously? You think the reason SOME Muslims wage Jihad is because other Muslims don't denounce it? That's absurd. They go to fight for something, not because fighting is some default mode they enter if a third party doesn't stop them.
There are plenty of Muslims speaking out against violence. If you haven't found them, then you haven't looked, maybe because you don't want to.
11 Jan 2015, 3:15 pm
eleventhirtytwo wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
11:32 wrote:
It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.
There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry many Muslims are getting sick of us being killed and somehow feeling being held morally responsible; we are tired of being killed too. Please forgive us.
But I wasn't asking you to grieve with us. I was wondering...Where is the fatwa declared against these killers and their imams?????? Where is the declaration marking them forever as killers not attached to Islam and that they are NOT REAL MUSLIMS????
I am sure the comments you directed me to are very politically correct (as would be expected), but WHERE is the outrage against these killers for polluting your religion??? Muslims seemed primed to cast death and destruction against any that even write opinions differing with those of Muslim leaders; where are these holier-than-thou leaders when it's time to condemn one of their own???
This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.
You have in no way convinced me otherwise.
Here is a link to an article covering a fatwa issued against ISIS by British muslim leaders and another link to an article covering a fatwa by a sheik from Mauritania against ISIS.
That's not to mention the 190,000 members of the Kurdish army who are currently involved in fighting ISIS on the ground, most of whom are muslim.
I'm pretty sure the Kurds have an agenda (more basic...like survival) other than protecting the Muslim religion against ISIS.
And I'm happy to see some Muslim outrage, even if it doesn't affect many outside these particular small areas (and does it prevent people there from joining radical organizations? I haven't heard about it).
So are you telling me the heads of the Islamic faith will not take up, even the pen against these filthy monsters? That it's left to obscure clerics to voice protest? You strengthen my contention.
It appears these "leaders" are quite happy with the way things are going. Which allows Muslims from all parts of life to participate without fear of losing their place in heaven. It's these leaders inaction which brings condemnation down on Islam, rightfully so. A religion of Peace????????
11 Jan 2015, 3:28 pm
ZenDen wrote:
eleventhirtytwo wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
11:32 wrote:
It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.
There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry many Muslims are getting sick of us being killed and somehow feeling being held morally responsible; we are tired of being killed too. Please forgive us.
But I wasn't asking you to grieve with us. I was wondering...Where is the fatwa declared against these killers and their imams?????? Where is the declaration marking them forever as killers not attached to Islam and that they are NOT REAL MUSLIMS????
I am sure the comments you directed me to are very politically correct (as would be expected), but WHERE is the outrage against these killers for polluting your religion??? Muslims seemed primed to cast death and destruction against any that even write opinions differing with those of Muslim leaders; where are these holier-than-thou leaders when it's time to condemn one of their own???
This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.
You have in no way convinced me otherwise.
Here is a link to an article covering a fatwa issued against ISIS by British muslim leaders and another link to an article covering a fatwa by a sheik from Mauritania against ISIS.
That's not to mention the 190,000 members of the Kurdish army who are currently involved in fighting ISIS on the ground, most of whom are muslim.
I'm pretty sure the Kurds have an agenda (more basic...like survival) other than protecting the Muslim religion against ISIS.
And I'm happy to see some Muslim outrage, even if it doesn't affect many outside these particular small areas (and does it prevent people there from joining radical organizations? I haven't heard about it).
So are you telling me the heads of the Islamic faith will not take up, even the pen against these filthy monsters? That it's left to obscure clerics to voice protest? You strengthen my contention.
It appears these "leaders" are quite happy with the way things are going. Which allows Muslims from all parts of life to participate without fear of losing their place in heaven. It's these leaders inaction which brings condemnation down on Islam, rightfully so. A religion of Peace????????
Uhmm, did you not read what I said - and linked to - or did you ignore the parts inconvenient to your opinion?
I have nothing to prove to you, but the ironic thing is that intolerant and bigoted people like yourself have more in common with groups like ISIS than I will ever have, and your attempts to demonise and ostracise the Muslim community will only ever have the effect of helping them recruit the weak minded and vulnerable out of the belief that they are unwanted and hated by the societies they live in.
_________________
22, entrepreneurial and diagnosed with High Functioning Autism, ADHD, OCD and Tourettes. Also have problems with Anxiety, and more recently depression, although I seem to returning to my optimistic self =)
11 Jan 2015, 3:32 pm
Adamantium wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.
You have in no way convinced me otherwise.
You have in no way convinced me otherwise.
Seriously? You think the reason SOME Muslims wage Jihad is because other Muslims don't denounce it? That's absurd. They go to fight for something, not because fighting is some default mode they enter if a third party doesn't stop them.
There are plenty of Muslims speaking out against violence. If you haven't found them, then you haven't looked, maybe because you don't want to.
I said MANY Muslims have no problem killing children, torturing, etc. (you know the details, do I have to list them?) and believe they follow the words of the Prophet because the main/head Muslim clerics have not told them it is against Muslim teachings. So they continue to kill, torture and behead.
Do I believe these terrorists are the fine family running a small business downtown here where I live? Stop being foolish. I'm certain many Muslims feel outraged as we do...you won't read me commenting about them. But it's obvious only a concerted effort by Islamic leaders, headed by the highest authorities available, will have any chance at changing this thing which has been allowed to run wild (assuming this wasn't the original intent of course). And they just sit on their hands.
Without a statement from the highest authorities radical Muslims will ignore all else, and continue their actions. Would you have anything to add?
11 Jan 2015, 3:45 pm
Uhmm, did you not read what I said - and linked to - or did you ignore the parts inconvenient to your opinion?
I have nothing to prove to you, but the ironic thing is that intolerant and bigoted people like yourself have more in common with groups like ISIS than I will ever have, and your attempts to demonise and ostracise the Muslim community will only ever have the effect of helping them recruit the weak minded and vulnerable out of the belief that they are unwanted and hated by the societies they live in.[/quote]
You ignore what I say and rise up in righteous indignation rather than answer the hard questions. If you continue to say I try to "demonise (sic) and ostracise (sic) the Muslim community" I may be forced to call YOU names as well.
But perhaps, by calling down condemnation on your idle religious leaders, a rational Muslim would declare, as you have, I attack your religion? If this is true I solemnly apologize....I didn't know we thought so differently.
But if an attack on me is not justified by my condemnation of Muslim leaders then why are you attacking me instead of being upset with those same inactive leaders? I only speak out about Muslim inactivity in light of the missing proclamations by your leaders. Where have I done otherwise? Will you deliberately misinterpret this?
11 Jan 2015, 3:54 pm
If you're not trying to demonise and ostracise the muslim community then I apologise, but it certainly looks that way from what you've been writing.
On the topic of "muslim leaders" I should point out that I am a Quranist muslim and so do not believe in organised religion or the legitimacy of anyone to claim more authority on interpreting the word of God than another. The reason I defend those who do is that I do not believe it is ok to discriminate against and criminalise any group, whether it be Jews, African Americans or another.
In the virtues of tolerance, empathy and understanding lies a better world for all.
_________________
22, entrepreneurial and diagnosed with High Functioning Autism, ADHD, OCD and Tourettes. Also have problems with Anxiety, and more recently depression, although I seem to returning to my optimistic self =)
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,796
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Jan 2015, 4:06 pm
Fnord wrote:
11:32 wrote:
... it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us ... There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
I can go along with all that.But I also ask that moderate believers everywhere speak out more loudly and more often against the violently radical elements of their own stated religions - whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, or Whatever.
I am not asking you to apologize for anything. Instead, I am asking you to be more vocal in your condemnations of false Islamists.
Please?
I'm pretty sure he's already done that already in this thread.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
11 Jan 2015, 4:15 pm
cyberdad wrote:
The prophet is referred to as a messenger and is actually no more venerable than other prophets in the Al-Quran (including Jesus). So I'm curious why "outraged" muslims don't froth at the mouth when there are millions of images desecrating Jesus??
I think the reason is that those images are meant to attack Christianity and not Islam. So they probably do not perceive it as a mocking of the prophet Isa, nor as in an insult of their identity.
11 Jan 2015, 4:17 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
11:32 wrote:
... it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us ... There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
I can go along with all that. But I also ask that moderate believers everywhere speak out more loudly and more often against the violently radical elements of their own stated religions - whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, or Whatever. I am not asking you to apologize for anything. Instead, I am asking you to be more vocal in your condemnations of false Islamists. Please?_________________
11 Jan 2015, 4:40 pm
eleventhirtytwo wrote:
On the topic of "muslim leaders" I should point out that I am a Quranist muslim and so do not believe in organised religion or the legitimacy of anyone to claim more authority on interpreting the word of God than another.
This is a very important point. Too many people in the west tend to think that Islam must be a sort of analogue to Chrsitianity. They have the simplistic idea that Muhammed has roughly the same place in Islam as Jesus in Christianity and think the various imams, muftis, allamahs and ayatollahs must be roughly equivalent to cardinals, bishops, priests, and pastors.... and so on. It is hard for people raised in the centralized power systems of schismatic Christianity to realize that Islam does not have truly analogous hierarchies.
Quote:
The reason I defend those who do is that I do not believe it is ok to discriminate against and criminalise any group, whether it be Jews, African Americans or another.
In the virtues of tolerance, empathy and understanding lies a better world for all.
In the virtues of tolerance, empathy and understanding lies a better world for all.
Yes!
11 Jan 2015, 4:46 pm
Self-declared Muslims who pretend to represent Islam while at the same time rejecting Sharia cannot be taken seriously. They are not Muslims, and would be executed for apostasy and blasphemy in regions governed by Islamic law. What they say means nothing compared to the atrocities committed under Sharia, which is the true face of Islam.
Last edited by Humanaut on 11 Jan 2015, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,796
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Jan 2015, 4:46 pm
Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
11:32 wrote:
... it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us ... There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
I can go along with all that. But I also ask that moderate believers everywhere speak out more loudly and more often against the violently radical elements of their own stated religions - whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, or Whatever. I am not asking you to apologize for anything. Instead, I am asking you to be more vocal in your condemnations of false Islamists. Please?I have no idea, that is his own business. I'm not one to stalk someone else to see if he does something I want him to do.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
11 Jan 2015, 4:53 pm
To me it's interesting that this thread had been moved to PPR, because I feel that it belongs to News and Current Affairs.
This is not a contest between religions- Islams versus Cristianity, but a contest between Civilization and Barbarism. The French terrorists are clients of ISIS who have taken over large swaths of Iraq and Syria.
The world has stood by while these sponsors of terrorism has committed mass murder and beheadings and have challenged the west to react.
Thousands of US servicemen have died trying to bring democracy to Iraq after the overthrow of Sadam Hussien. We owe it to those servicemen to continue their job they started and send the army back in to free the enslaved people in Northern Iraq and defeat ISIS.
11 Jan 2015, 5:18 pm
progaspie wrote:
To me it's interesting that this thread had been moved to PPR, because I feel that it belongs to News and Current Affairs.
This is not a contest between religions- Islams versus Cristianity, but a contest between Civilization and Barbarism. The French terrorists are clients of ISIS who have taken over large swaths of Iraq and Syria.
The world has stood by while these sponsors of terrorism has committed mass murder and beheadings and have challenged the west to react.
Thousands of US servicemen have died trying to bring democracy to Iraq after the overthrow of Sadam Hussien. We owe it to those servicemen to continue their job they started and send the army back in to free the enslaved people in Northern Iraq and defeat ISIS.
This is not a contest between religions- Islams versus Cristianity, but a contest between Civilization and Barbarism. The French terrorists are clients of ISIS who have taken over large swaths of Iraq and Syria.
The world has stood by while these sponsors of terrorism has committed mass murder and beheadings and have challenged the west to react.
Thousands of US servicemen have died trying to bring democracy to Iraq after the overthrow of Sadam Hussien. We owe it to those servicemen to continue their job they started and send the army back in to free the enslaved people in Northern Iraq and defeat ISIS.
NOT. In your way the killing will never end. Would you have us occupy someone's country forever?.. Keep killing and killing until they're all gone? Please rethink your approach to life and other people's lives.
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