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dianthus
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21 Jan 2015, 5:30 pm

Felinelover wrote:
But I do still think he's a fabulous person and this must all be a misunderstanding. My parents used to say 'If you two separate, he will find a better spouse, but you won't.' I used to always believe this, and it stopped me from leaving, even when I felt he'd be better off without me cos I just can't give to him what he needs.


That was a horrible thing to say. They were wrong to say something like that to you. And it's not true. You can for sure find a better partner than one who pushes you around or threatens you. Yes apart from that he may have some good qualities. But he is not such a great person overall if he treats you that way, and he is not a good partner.

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I showed my parents this thread and they said 'yes this may be objectively true but you can paint a picture like that of anyone if you just show their worst bits'.


No you can't paint a picture like that of "anyone." You can only paint a picture like that of people who objectively do things like shoving you against a wall. That's not normal behavior in a marriage.

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- I mean I was almost committed a month ago, when the psychiatrist in all her great expertise decided I have psychotic mania...


That whole experience makes a lot more sense to me now that you've said more about your husband. When a person is manipulating you the way he is, it could change your behavior in a way that makes it seem like you have a mood disorder. Similarly, living with a person who has mood swings (particularly borderline or bipolar) can also make it seem like you have a mood disorder.

A lot of professionals are not good at making that distinction. They just assume that whatever they see in a patient, originates solely within the patient, and they don't investigate to find out whether it might actually originate with someone else the patient lives or works with.

It's not unusual for this to happen with personality disorders like psychopathy, narcissism, or borderline PD. The person who is afflicted with the PD is able to hide their behavior well enough to seem normal when they need to, while they quite literally drive others crazy behind the scenes. This doesn't just happen in families, it happens in workplaces too.

Many times they are not consciously trying to gaslight another person...they really believe that they ARE the normal one and it must be others who have the problem. And unfortunately they can often find someone quite willing to agree with them, like a psychiatrist, judge, etc. especially if they are male.

The scary thing happening here is that he is quite deliberately trying to make others think you are "crazy" and he actually talked someone into going against your plans to get an apartment. That's beyond just making threats. This is very, very, very alarming and I cannot emphasize to you enough...you need to get someone in your corner to fight for you, pronto.



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21 Jan 2015, 5:54 pm

Dianthus wrote:


A lot of professionals are not good at making that distinction. They just assume that whatever they see in a patient, originates solely within the patient, and they don't investigate to find out whether it might actually originate with someone else the patient lives or works with.

...

That is perhaps the most important contribution to this discussion so far - and I back it 1000%.

We all know the famous line that "no man is an island" though somehow a lot of "psych" professionals in clinical work are completely oblivious to how that applies, and so trapped in reductionist thinking and practice (because they are trained in it, and not trained to critique its limitations) that they unwittingly perpetrate harm on the people who seek their help. The trainee psychs who think that expertise is a matter of "swallowing the textbook" are the very worst offenders, especially if they go into these programmes straight from school with no life experience which involves a broad range of experience. It makes me want to cry...



Felinelover
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22 Jan 2015, 5:58 am

Thank you very much for your views.

Sending big love to you all. :heart: :heart: :heart:


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 163 of 200
Your neurotypical score: 61 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)


heavenlyabyss
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22 Jan 2015, 7:06 am

I agree with everyone here. It's not normal to shove people around. I can't remember the last time I ever saw an adult shove another adult. The reason adults don't do it public is because they know it is wrong and will be seen by bystanders for exactly what it is - domestic abuse.

It sounds like he belittles you which is very common with verbal abuse. I'm not saying it rises to the level of being able to arrest him for it, but it's just not healthy. He wants you to feel that he is the best you will ever do. That's manipulation.



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 1:55 am

Definitely hubby is a gas lighter. You should watch a movie Gaslight starring Ingrad Bergman. It's on Netflix.

Also, you should read:

Adult Children of
Narcissistic Parents
ACONs Copyright 2010. All Rights Reserved.

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Adult Children of Narcissistic Parents grow up disempowered and disconnected from their authentic selves. They fear retribution, punishment and condemnation, and are their own harshest critics. Until they resolve the issues resulting from their upbringing, they struggle with a deep sense of inferiority and fear of rejection. ACONs are often either overachievers or underachievers.

Adult Children of Narcissists are well-practiced in the art of pretending they have no needs, believe that they must present as demand-less in order to gain others' acceptance, and that if they show their true wants and needs to others, they will be rejected.

ACONs cannot easily accept and nurture their own wishes, and this may manifest as taking on roles they are not well suited to or do not like, or as an inability to be, do and have things they most want. Self-sabotage and perfectionism are common issues.

Many Adult Children of Narcissists feel that there is an intangible, immutable difference about them that cannot quite be identified which makes them inherently guilty, bad, wrong and unworthy.

Prior to resolving their childhood issues, ACONs have tremendous difficulty asserting themselves well, asking for what they need, seeing their own value and honoring their true wishes. They have been trained to follow, to accept, to sacrifice, to take too much responsibility, and to make sure they present themselves as unthreatening or inferior. Adult children of Narcissists are frequently taken advantage of and find themselves in unbalanced relationships that require more of them than they can expect to receive.

Adult Children of Narcissists suffer from a vague feeling that they are always on the verge of "getting into trouble" unjustifiably. They fear that individuals and organizations with power will use it to abuse them. Constantly invalidated as children, ACONs consistently doubt themselves and worry about being told they're wrong and getting mistreated or penalized severely. Most are very uncomfortable taking risks, and may try to present as invisible in an effort to protect themselves.

ACONs have difficulty with self-care and life skills, and may feel as if they are "stuck in childhood" despite their age, feeling powerless, lost, frightened, and wanting someone to parent them.

Many Adult Children of Narcissists suffer from a tremendous sense of guilt about everything they do. Where others have no difficulty buying what they need, taking time off, or making sure they care for themselves, ACONs stumble, caught in the gap between being expected to care for themselves and having been programmed not to do so at all cost.

Among the objectives for ACONs to achieve are freedom from crippling guilt, developing a sense of mattering, mastering self-acceptance and realizing their self-worth. Assertiveness, self-care, and demanding equanimity and reciprocity in relationships by raising their low expectations of others and lowering the impossibly high standards they set for themselves are key issues. Discovering, accepting, valuing, nurturing and protecting their true selves without guilt or fear is central to their healing.



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23 Jan 2015, 2:16 am

Terrific post!



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 2:28 am

Now focus on that last paragraph. Write down your short term goals and then just quit thinking. Your brain needs a break from not only the gas lighting and narcassistic parents but also from self condemnation.

Keep your mind ON to what you do want and OFF to the things you don't want.

The rule is "POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE". You have to love yourself before you can love others fairly or expect others to love you. So make up your mind that YOU DESERVE BETTER AND YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE IT. It's time for you to control you!! !

You CAN do this. How do I know:

1. I have narcissistic parents.
2. I have helped several other women through these 2 issues.
3. I have a sociology degree.

I have read all your post and all you need is YOU. Never let anyone steal your joy. That is YOURS! You have to set this example for your children. Stop asking for acceptance and start EXPECTING IT! Your parents have issues. Your husband has issues. You need to gain strength from those babies to not let these other people rob them of the mother they deserve. It's not fair to them. Out dress everyone. That's what helps me the most. Like body armor. That includes smiling, curling your hair and wearing some make up. The first part of loving yourself is projecting yourself in a favorable light. And turn your EARS OFF!



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 3:05 am

Thank you B19. I was in a real bad car accident that disabled me and killed my friend. My parents said I was "making it up" and "don't call back til things are better in your life". I had/have multiple fractures in my head, shattered jaws plus other body impairments. They refused to see me. By the time they seen me (8 months later) and seen how much weight I lost (120 down to 80) they accused me of being on drugs. I was homeless, no car, hurt and starving. In the process of healing, I was sent to a head injury specialist with degrees in neurology and psychiatry. Wonderful man. When he asked me about my relationship with my mother and I told him, he explained to me that not all parents are perfect and I was not blessed with loving parents who could see me because narcissist can't see beyond themselves. I had 2 small children. After 9 hours surgery on my head and some recovery time, I started school. My academic record was solid so it was no problem to get admitted to Ohio State. I didn't tell them I was having problems finishing thoughts and sentences. Listening to several hours of lecture a day brought me along to more recovery. I spent 10 years on my education and now I am the most educated person in my family. My brother makes more money but guess who he calls when he has problems? This is quite my compliment because he is 7 years older with a genius IQ. My mother disowned me. I didn't listen when she told me I was wasting my time going to school and what the hell was I going to do after I graduated with disabilities. I showed her and she cut me off. I wasn't mean about it. Just asked her if she was proud of me. "What the hell does your education have to do with me"? "Well Mom, I studied all about you and I would like to help you". "I don't need your dam help. There is nothing wrong with me! YOU are the one with all the issues". "Okay Mom". The next time I called she said "we are trying to forget you and cut you out of our will". I said "you are trying to forget me"? She said "yes". I said "DONE". And now I am happy because she released me from feeling obligated to 'call my mother' even though she upset me every time with her words. My brother tries to make me feel guilty telling me she doesn't have long to live but I tell him "she knows that better than I do and she has my number". I am DONE with the abuse. As a child I was beat, molested by her husband, ran down and lied to and about. I was a straight A student, did what I was told and caused no waves. If she is not happy to know me or proud to be my mother... that's her problem. Charles Manson could have kids but do they have to honor and obey him? I think not so I know there's a line somewhere and my parents are over it too. So is this woman's parents. What mother says these things to their child? They are just people. We have a planet full of people. I prefer the nice ones!
:D Let the sunshine in, face it with a grin, open up your heart and let the sunshine in. :D



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23 Jan 2015, 3:30 am

Don't. Ever. Go. Back. Thinking. They. Have. Changed... Create your own family now, from people who love, support, respect and care about and for you.



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 4:16 am

:D :D :D I am. Most of all, I love me. I have friends and a bunch of fur bags of love. As a sociologist, I have on ongoing study of... now get this~ heehee~ the familial relationship of a cat family. Watching them is very satisfying. When the kids fight, Mommy comes and they all sit in a circle. She always knows who even if she was across the house. She walks up to the guilty ones and smacks em and chews em out. They don't dare move either. Now Mommy is the smallest but none of them mess with Mommy. Not even Daddy. I could go on but I just find this so fascinating. Now Daddy teaches them about fighting, playing, chasing and naps. Mommy lets me know whatever one or all of them need or if something is wrong. She talks to me until I figure it out and I am becoming able to understand the different meows. Her and Daddy have full house access because they are now fixed but the rest are divided in 2 large rooms with allocated free time to roam. It's precious and they have adopted me. They literally pet me. I get so much love from this furry lil family. No my house doesn't smell. I use cedar and silica gel litter and hang lava rocks plus its all hard floors with a salt block in each room. They have people beds with zippered plastic covers. They get baths too and I have air purifiers. I feed them home made food and DE. You would walk in and never know they were there. It's been a few years and still nobody can tell. Not everybody I know, knows I have them. Some people just don't like cats and it's none of their biz. Now if you get the desire to stereotype me as a lil ole cat lady, I assure you I have no problems dating. I am still pretty young, work out, dress to impress and drive a nice car. My house is nice too. Yes, I have made it that far on my own but I am very selective about who I let know where I live and nobody spends the night with me. I only date successful men that have something to lose if they get "stuck on stupid". Plus it takes at least 6 months to make it to my house. I am also done with stalkers. I have had them and peeping toms since I was 12. Helping people is why I joined. Sharing my experience and being an example as a witness for our Lord to believe in him and ourselves and the light will shine.



Last edited by qtwrain on 23 Jan 2015, 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Jan 2015, 4:26 am

I am not religious though I was frequently lectured as a young person to "honour your parents" and I was in conflict about that judgmental manipulation, because I felt strongly that there was no honour in the home that I grew up in, dominated by a woman who was textbook NPD.

Then one day a catholic priest who was familiar with my situation directed me to a passage in the New Testament which he felt I needed to take on board - and it was this:

Matthew 10:14New International Version (NIV)

14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

He reinforced it and urged me to shake the dust from my feet, and this released me from the fog of guilt and manipulation that I had endured, in a moment. A wonderful moment! The light came on and I was out of there.



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 4:29 am

That's awesome. So you too are here to share and help? An older woman who kind of adopted me told me to pay her back was to look out for others when I gained some knowledge and wisdom. She is a big part of why I am here today living this life and even though she passed away, I will always keep my word and look out for others as she did me. RIP



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23 Jan 2015, 4:36 am

Yes, I am a big believer in paying it forward :)



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 4:42 am

May I ask "are you male or female"? I see you are retired. Congrats! What field were you in? I would love to visit NZ and Aussi. Oh and Guam. I hear the seafood is excellent.



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23 Jan 2015, 4:19 pm

qtwrain wrote:
May I ask "are you male or female"? I see you are retired. Congrats! What field were you in? I would love to visit NZ and Aussi. Oh and Guam. I hear the seafood is excellent.


Female, seafood lover (NZ bluff oysters and abalone are great, but Australia has better prawns and their Morton Bay bugs cooked in beautiful sauces, and the mud crabs are worth going there just for that happy food experience!) - I was in psychology but am recovering... :)



qtwrain
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23 Jan 2015, 5:20 pm

I am sooo jealous. I am female too. I think most people who study clinical behavior have our own issues and that rises our interest in these fields. I didn't go the psych direction because of the constant prescribing of man made drugs. Personally, I have enough problems and don't need to get started on crutches. Nutriceuticals is more my preference. I enjoyed your post on NPD. It is very helpful 411 in my personal life. Thank you.

The thing I find most interesting about NZ is the clinical studies. Several US doctors have gone there to do studies to bypass the red tape here and you can really tell a huge difference in the findings. They are more intelligible, insightful, and broader spectrum analysis.

Then I also know the most pristine waters are around you. I wanna jump in and not come out til that purity runs through me. Our water is disgusting. The EPA is a beaurocratic joke designed to line pockets and crush the competitors of corporate campaign donors.



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