Can a person be both autistic and a narcissist?

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dianthus
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03 Apr 2015, 11:26 am

Ettina wrote:

BiffWellington wrote:

Yes, it's just like having autism and OCD, or autism and social anxiety disorder: it's likely to come with the territory. Lack of empathy is an obvious contributor, but lack of flexible thinking, a higher demand for control (mainly with environment), and repetitive patterns (manifested in special interests). NTs are more random in their thoughts, flexible, and have a natural sense for social reciprocity; they enjoy the novelty of other people's experiences. Staying in one's "own world" is more rigid, more predictable, and requires less adapting (which I think we struggle with in a narrow scope).

Rigidity, need for control and repetitiveness have nothing to do with narcissism, and the 'lack of empathy' associated with narcissism is affective empathy, while autism only affects cognitive empathy.

Need for control has everything to do with narcissism, but it's for much different reasons than autistic rigidity. Narcissists want to control other people emotionally. They also like to triangulate other people, so they can control how those people communicate with each other.

Alienhybrid
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03 Apr 2015, 2:53 pm

My neighbors cat is an evil narcissist.
Sometimes when I squint my eyes, I can perceive the evil emanating from her devilish mind.
And some babies too. Especially unrepentant nipple biters.

traven
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03 Apr 2015, 3:07 pm

BiffWellington wrote:

I think good compromise for aspies is a limited relationships where friends or partners share special interests, with similar personalities and backgrounds...beyond that, there has to be an effort from both sides to maintain a balanced relationship...or else it will inevitably end or even worse, linger where one or both parties drown in the misery of resentment.

dianthus wrote:

I'm guessing that an autistic narcissist could actually be more dangerous than an allistic one, because of the frustration they feel at not being very socially adept.

Good thoughts! I keep wondering if that's the case of my case, my ex not fitting the narcistic meanness, often just being rude when you're in the way of his priority, which is always the only important thing at that moment.
Not like the random neighbors who'll take as much profit of you as they can and, when you say 'no,' will scheme up something that must damage you, because they feel entitled to doing so.

AnonymousAnonymous
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03 Apr 2015, 3:25 pm

I've been accused of being a narcissist because I have no friends. However, I've met a few people who are narcissists themselves and want people to be just like them.

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B19
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03 Apr 2015, 3:30 pm

The concept of 'narcissistic supply' is an intrinsic element of the pathological form narcissism which is a personality disorder. I think it helps to understand that in relation to a discussion like this one. When the N supply is disrupted, narcissistic rage is typically triggered and inflicted on others. (Lubitz?)

Robert Hare and Theodore Millon have made significant contributions to understanding of the various psychological elements of pathological narcissism.

Here is a link that explains what is meant by narcissistic supply in relation to cluster B Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

http://thenarcissisticlife.com/narcissistic-supply/

traven
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04 Apr 2015, 2:54 am

??(sorry in advance)
when just stuggling and trying to selfhelp and understanding, dragging in the academics, who in the end might not have it all right (R.Hare, I'm certain that's not very right at all, he's picking on a lot of aspie-autism-stuff too) doesn't help that much,
Please, don't confuse help with conforming to academic labeling.

League_Girl
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04 Apr 2015, 3:02 am

dryope wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I knew a person online and she would act all nice and sweet and then the next thing I would know she would be attacking members and insulting them and playing the victim. She also hated to be ignored so she would post more insults and it would be obvious they were directed at someone. She could have been a narcissistic. Someone else labeled her as that and she claimed to be autistic. She would also bring up her past in every discussion or argument as if it were relevant and she acted like her being a victim of child abuse was a badge of honor like it was something she achieved.

She could have BPD -- that seems to come up from time to time for women on the spectrum. I know I have these urges myself: to play the victim, to get all spun up when someone says something innocent that I misinterpret, etc. I have an intense fear of being attacked and socially rejected, so when I think that that's happening my vision goes all black and I lose my rationality. It's far worse when I'm already anxious.

Realizing this situation and dealing with it rationally -- before I lose it -- can help resolve the trend. Because of my aspie nature, the usual BPD treatments really don't work for me, but I've found that observing myself and my emotional impulses, taking notes on them to find patterns, and self-coaching so I can talk myself down and deal with issues before they blow up has really turned me around. I looked like a psycho b***h sometimes, but I had no idea I was overreacting. I honestly thought I was defending myself from serious situations. BPD is about overreacting because you feel extremely vulnerable -- kind of the opposite of narcissism (though I'm not an expert on narcissism so I could be wrong there).

Uh, anyway, this was a thread about narcissism. Sorry to hijack it! Another reason autistic folks may look like narcissists is that a lot of the time we seem to agree that we don't want to generalize experiences, so we talk in the first person a lot. My experience is just my experience, but I do believe this BPD nonsense may be something other folks on the spectrum may have had, too.

Also I tend to be up my own butt a lot -- metaphorically. I have my special interests, I'm in my head working things out, I'm coaching myself through social situations...you know the drill. So that can make me pretty self-absorbed. But I have a ton of empathy...a lot of what I have to coach myself on is looking like I don't care because when I do care I tend to smother people. So annoying to have all of my instincts take me in the opposite direction from everyone else around me, but there it is.

What you wrote sounds a lot like her. Some thought she was a schizophrenic and some others thought she was bipolar and the forum admin thought she was a narcissistic. Except she wouldn't take any responsibility at all and would use her past as an excuse for her behavior. She even admitted that. The excuse part that is and it looked clear to me she seemed blind to her actions so of course she couldn't take responsibility. She was always right in her view. But yet she knowledge one time she has problems but then said it was too late for her to fix them.

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Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.

B19
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04 Apr 2015, 4:46 am

traven wrote:

Ok, let me simplify it right down for you, I hope this will help you clarify your confusion a bit>

This is very basically how it works in Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

1) pathological narcissists need continual narcissistic supply to feed their inflated self-image; (eg held in high esteem by others, admired, envied et al)

2) when the supply is cut off, for any reason, (a girlfriend threatens to leave) or supplies are threatened, this blow to their ego triggers the next stage, which can come on very suddenly out of all proportion to the triggering event, and stage 3 begins explosively

3) narcissistic rage - this can be murderous, deadly, and sudden.

Example: I know of one NPD man who tried to run his ex girlfriend down in his car because she inconvenienced him in a very minor way. The attitude is "how dare you do this to me? I will destroy you".

Not all malignant narcissists (the pathological type) are men. Men seem to be more common though I don't think the difference is as great as it has been made out to be in the past.

PS Robert Hare is, so far as I know, an expert on Cluster B disorders (especially pathological narcissism) and has no professional interest at all in ASDs, autism, aspergers etc - so if there is material he's written about those that I don't yet know about, re autism from him, please provide a link. Thanks

B19
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04 Apr 2015, 5:18 am

For others that do like a more academic approach, this interview published in the New Yorker a few years ago is a good place to start. Notice particularly how the interviewee (Keihl, who is a specialist in sociopath/psychopath/narcissism field) explains why autism is unrelated to narcissistic/psychopathic behaviour - he adds that autists are polar opposites to narcissists and that is also my experience.

Conflating autism with pathology is inaccurate and generally an idea only pushed by specific hate sites and ignorant groups/people (as we recently saw in another long thread on WP that was invaded and corrupted by members of a subgroup of Delphi Forums who are on a mission to prove the ignorant idea that ASD = NPD).

http://www.newyorker.com/books/ask-the- ... n-seabrook

abeautifulmind
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04 Apr 2015, 6:31 am

Not sure, but whatever I have found out in my research/studies, Narcissism is more of Schizoid trait than an autistic trait.

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04 Apr 2015, 6:43 am

Narcissists have an "exaggerated sense of self ". It is not self-love, more than that. Exaggerated sense of self to the extent of belittling others, treat others as inadequate or insignificant in front of them/ or in their mind. Autistics, on the other hand ( I am talking about most, not all ) have a "very low sense of self" or low self esteem due to social discrimination. That is why schizoids are narcissists and autistics are not, at least not that much.

Kiriae
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04 Apr 2015, 7:40 am

will@rd wrote:

LOL, I know someone who fits that description. Genuinely nice person, but cannot - and I mean cannot - talk about anything but himself and how good he is at everything. Sometimes its rather condescending, because they always think they're telling you something you don't know and they are the very epitome of the Aspie who lectures about their special interests and doesn't have a clue when to shut up. Heart of gold, head of stone - not stupid, just socially blind to anything that doesn't start with "I" and end with "me".

That could be me. I understand everything by "How does it relate to me?", "What I would do in this situation?", "Did something similar ever happen to me?".
"Me" and "I" seem to be the most common words I use.

But while I am definitely egocentric (yeah, I'm aware of that) I am not narcissistic. I have high self-esteem but that's only because I know my abilities, I exaggerate nothing and I am aware of my shortcomings. I simply know what I am capable of. I don't need other people to tell me how good I am. Usually I don't even like receiving complements because other people don't know what's in my head and they often compliment things that were easy for me and lessen accomplishments that were hard for me. I like speaking about my accomplishments though even if noone praises me. And obvious ignorance or criticism hurt me. I try my best not to make a big deal of it and I consider it all rationally but emotionally I still feel hurt. I don't act it out though and I forgive fast(within minutes) so it's not a problem.

dianthus
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04 Apr 2015, 12:13 pm

B19 wrote:

Notice particularly how the interviewee (Keihl, who is a specialist in sociopath/psychopath/narcissism field) explains why autism is unrelated to narcissistic/psychopathic behaviour - he adds that autists are polar opposites to narcissists and that is also my experience.

This comment? This doesn't explain much. Is there something else on the page that I overlooked?

KENT KIEHL: I am unaware of any link between forms of autism and psychopathy. Indeed, youth with psychopathic traits are usually highly verbal, social, and disinhibited—the opposite of most forms of autism.

In any case, I am not asking here if there is a link between autism and psychopathy. I am asking if autism can coincide with narcissism. I understand that the traits of each can be very opposed or contradictory, which is why I'm asking if it's possible to have both.

Also from what I've been reading, it sounds like covert narcissism can present as somewhat opposite of classic or overt narcissism.

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04 Apr 2015, 1:10 pm

dianthus wrote:

Can autism and narcissism be co-morbid?

I dont know the answer, but why not?
NPD is developed, an environmentally conditioned disorder.
Why would people with ASD be impervious to the environmental conditions required to develop this disorder?
My thoughts on it as an ASD comorbid, is that I think it is more likely for an undiagnosed Autist to develop symptoms as a survival mechanism, than someone diagnosed in childhood. If a person becomes fixated on the outward image as a method of fitting in, could the survival based importance of being an effective chameleon 24/7 distort a persons priorities?
Can a person have ASD and a PD diagnosis?

dianthus
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04 Apr 2015, 1:29 pm

Amity wrote:

NPD is developed, an environmentally conditioned disorder.
Why would people with ASD be impervious to the environmental conditions required to develop this disorder?

Exactly.

Quote:

My thoughts on it as an ASD comorbid, is that I think it is more likely for an undiagnosed Autist to develop symptoms as a survival mechanism, than someone diagnosed in childhood. If a person becomes fixated on the outward image as a method of fitting in, could the survival based importance of being an effective chameleon 24/7 distort a persons priorities?

I was thinking about this too.

Plus in my mother's case, there is a lot of hoarding on her mother's side of the family. My grandmother was a hoarder and there was a very clear emphasis on money and things having a higher value than people. So my mother picked up some very materialistic tendencies.

traven
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04 Apr 2015, 3:16 pm

dianthus wrote:

Amity wrote:

NPD is developed, an environmentally conditioned disorder.
Why would people with ASD be impervious to the environmental conditions required to develop this disorder?

Exactly.

Quote:

I was thinking about this too.

^^ me too

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