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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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07 Apr 2015, 9:11 am

My mom was influenced by my great grandmother who didn't believe in ever drinking alcohol because of Jesus and what's in the Bible, so she thinks all alcohol is bad because of this but I ask, where does this idea come from, because, according to Matthew 11:19 which says:

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a drunkard, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.


So why this idea that Jesus was this man who never drank and hated drinking???? I never got this vibe from him because his people would meet, eat bread, drink wine together. Could have been some clandestine affair, like Free Masons or Illuminati at first, and they would banquet and talk mysticism, in the tradition of King Solomon. One of Jesus's pass times, apparently, was casting out demons and he relied on the teachings of Solomon.

Matthew 11:19 isn't the only example of Jesus's devotion to food and drink. He turned water into wine, too. He fed a crowd with breads and fishes from his fishermen devotees, even though they claim it was a miracle, it was really, perhaps, an act of charity.

So why do old time religious Christian folks always assume to be Christian means they cannot have a nice, fun get together with booze and good food, and with "bad" people, too. I swear this "holier than art thou" attitude would have repelled the Jesus that's in the Bible so if that's your excuse to be a douche, Bible Jesus would rebuke you for it.



naturalplastic
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07 Apr 2015, 11:03 am

We had to hide the contents of the liquor cabinet when grandma (probably of your great grandma's generation) visited us as well.

Christ never touched the hard stuff.

The reason: hard liquor hadn't been invented yet. They only had beer, wine, and mead, back then. Or thats my understanding. Maybe they think that beer and wine are "gateway drugs" to hard liguor. So they figure that Christ wouldve been a tea totler if he were around today. Just a WILD guess.



Basso53
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07 Apr 2015, 11:12 am

Here's another little factoid that would probably upset your mom, too: Jesus also urinated and defecated. :wink:


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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07 Apr 2015, 1:58 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
We had to hide the contents of the liquor cabinet when grandma (probably of your great grandma's generation) visited us as well.

Christ never touched the hard stuff.

The reason: hard liquor hadn't been invented yet. They only had beer, wine, and mead, back then. Or thats my understanding. Maybe they think that beer and wine are "gateway drugs" to hard liguor. So they figure that Christ wouldve been a tea totler if he were around today. Just a WILD guess.



All alcohol is anti Christian to them, not just the hard stuff. They have more an Islamic attitude toward it only not as extreme, but close while I believe I should have a half coffee cup full of red wine a day for medicinal purposes. They frown on that and I don't talk about it around my mom.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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07 Apr 2015, 1:58 pm

Basso53 wrote:
Here's another little factoid that would probably upset your mom, too: Jesus also urinated and defecated. :wink:

Hehehe, so does Santa Claus and Easter Bunny.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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07 Apr 2015, 3:52 pm

And what is revealed by this passage in Matthew is something that some do not wish to do, obtain wisdom through understanding. I find this passage very revealing about the true nature of the Christos which is motivated by wisdom:

Quote:
Wisdom is justified of her children - The children of wisdom are the wise - those who understand. The Saviour means that though that generation of Pharisees and fault-finders did not appreciate the conduct of John and himself, yet the "wise," the candid - those who understood the reasons of their conduct - would approve of and do justice to it.



http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-19.htm

Understand why Jesus or Joshua is eating with the commoners and drinking wine with them before judging him and thinking the worst about him which apparently the Pharisees did.



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08 Apr 2015, 11:32 am

Well, first-of-all, it MIGHT just be that your great-grandmother believes that it's actually drunkenness that's against the Bible, and not drinking A glass of wine, for instance. She knows drinking can lead to drunkenness----so, to be on the safe side, she just doesn't drink, at all.

Secondly, people pick and choose what Bible "instructions" they want to follow. Ask your gg if she's ever eaten shell-fish!!

Thirdly, it's quite common, IMO, for people your gg's age to "preach" / follow the OLD Testament----when Jesus came-along, He gave us "The Bible Lite"----He wasn't as concerned with drinking as He was with our taking care of our "brother".





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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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08 Apr 2015, 11:46 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Well, first-of-all, it MIGHT just be that your great-grandmother believes that it's actually drunkenness that's against the Bible, and not drinking A glass of wine, for instance. She knows drinking can lead to drunkenness----so, to be on the safe side, she just doesn't drink, at all.

Secondly, people pick and choose what Bible "instructions" they want to follow. Ask your gg if she's ever eaten shell-fish!!

Thirdly, it's quite common, IMO, for people your gg's age to "preach" / follow the OLD Testament----when Jesus came-along, He gave us "The Bible Lite"----He wasn't as concerned with drinking as He was with our taking care of our "brother".

My great gg sadly passed away before I reached the age of ten but she had tremendous influence on my mother and her brother and sisters who tend to tsk tsk at any drinking as if Jesus never drank and that's not true.

Drinking in excess is a problem but I don't see half a coffee cup of red wine a day around bedtime to be a big deal and I know Jesus would say, go ahead, drink that half coffee cup of wine. It's okay.



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08 Apr 2015, 12:45 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I don't see half a coffee cup of red wine a day around bedtime to be a big deal.....



I don't either.....







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08 Apr 2015, 2:14 pm

People drank wine in those times for a very practical reason: unless it came from a deep well, water wasn't safe to drink.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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08 Apr 2015, 2:34 pm

Basso53 wrote:
People drank wine in those times for a very practical reason: unless it came from a deep well, water wasn't safe to drink.

Not only that but it might have been thought of as medicine at times, taken for various reasons, kind of like herbs.



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08 Apr 2015, 3:01 pm

Never asked grandma about the theology of it.

I don't think there has to be a Biblical source for it. It could be that the thinking is: alcohol is obviously bad, and you need god to fend off bad stuff, so dont ever drink, and let god help you fend off drinking. It doesnt have to be forbidden in the Bible. In fact there was an autobiographical country hit by T. Graham Brown called "Wine into Water" ( takes the miracle in the NT, and turns it on its head) about the "miracle" of his own recovery from alcoholism with the help of Jesus.

On the other hand many Fundies, and Evangelicals, claim that the Bible has been mistranslated all along.

"Wine" is mentioned A LOT in both testaments. Often in a good way (its a gift from god to bring joy) and often in a bad way ( both Noah, and Lot, got ploughed, and appeared in the "Patriarchs Gone Wild" videos doing embarrassing stuff). Some folks say that all of the good references to "wine" in the Bible are really about "fruit juice", and only the bad references are about actual alcohol containing wine. This is known as the "two wine theory".



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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08 Apr 2015, 3:16 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Never asked grandma about the theology of it.

I don't think there has to be a Biblical source for it. It could be that the thinking is: alcohol is obviously bad, and you need god to fend off bad stuff, so dont ever drink, and let god help you fend off drinking. It doesnt have to be forbidden in the Bible. In fact there was an autobiographical country hit by T. Graham Brown called "Wine into Water" ( takes the miracle in the NT, and turns it on its head) about the "miracle" of his own recovery from alcoholism with the help of Jesus.

On the other hand many Fundies, and Evangelicals, claim that the Bible has been mistranslated all along.

"Wine" is mentioned A LOT in both testaments. Often in a good way (its a gift from god to bring joy) and often in a bad way ( both Noah, and Lot, got ploughed, and appeared in the "Patriarchs Gone Wild" videos doing embarrassing stuff). Some folks say that all of the good references to "wine" in the Bible are really about "fruit juice", and only the bad references are about actual alcohol containing wine. This is known as the "two wine theory".

There might be something in the Proverbs, I haven't checked. I just know Jesus would drink wine so I guess it's okay.

What stands out though is Jews are not thought of to be heavy drinkers, especially in the backwaters like Galilee which would have been more fundamental than the cities like Jerusalem, so how is it Jesus is so familiar with wine? Wine is more associated with Roman culture than Jewish which is suspicious.



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08 Apr 2015, 4:11 pm

The Jews didnt have a god of wine like Dionysus, but they were no strangers to wine.

Prior to Islam wine was pretty much circum Mediterranean.

Modern Jews use wine in the passover seder. And in other rituals. They even have a blessing that translates as "blessed aren't thou Lord for bringing us the gift of the fruit of the vine".

Archeaologists have found stone wine presses in Israel dating from Biblical times.

And like I said wine is mentioned a lot all through of both testaments.

After the flood the first thing Noah did was plant a grape vine. Then he imbibed, and got crazy and naked (all that stress from the building and commanding ark I guess).

The Jews seemed to have had a love-hate relationship with wine in Bible.

But they didnt need the Greeks and Romans to introduce wine to them.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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08 Apr 2015, 4:23 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The Jews didnt have a god of wine like Dionysus, but they were no strangers to wine.

Prior to Islam wine was pretty much circum Mediterranean.

Modern Jews use wine in the passover seder. And in other rituals. They even have a blessing that translates as "blessed aren't thou Lord for bringing us the gift of the fruit of the vine".

Archeaologists have found stone wine presses in Israel dating from Biblical times.

And like I said wine is mentioned a lot all through of both testaments.

After the flood the first thing Noah did was plant a grape vine. Then he imbibed, and got crazy and naked (all that stress from the building and commanding ark I guess).

The Jews seemed to have had a love-hate relationship with wine in Bible.

But they didn't need the Greeks and Romans to introduce wine to them.


But wasn't wine more abundant and plentiful in Rome? Also, the Nazirites were abstained from wine drinking completely.
In Jewish culture, it seems reserved for special occasions while in Rome, people consumed it daily. Even though Romans did not approve of drunkenness, Jews seem more restrained in their wine consumption.



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08 Apr 2015, 4:42 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The Jews didnt have a god of wine like Dionysus, but they were no strangers to wine.

Prior to Islam wine was pretty much circum Mediterranean.

Modern Jews use wine in the passover seder. And in other rituals. They even have a blessing that translates as "blessed aren't thou Lord for bringing us the gift of the fruit of the vine".

Archeaologists have found stone wine presses in Israel dating from Biblical times.

And like I said wine is mentioned a lot all through of both testaments.

After the flood the first thing Noah did was plant a grape vine. Then he imbibed, and got crazy and naked (all that stress from the building and commanding ark I guess).

The Jews seemed to have had a love-hate relationship with wine in Bible.

But they didn't need the Greeks and Romans to introduce wine to them.


But wasn't wine more abundant and plentiful in Rome? Also, the Nazirites were abstained from wine drinking completely.
In Jewish culture, it seems reserved for special occasions while in Rome, people consumed it daily. Even though Romans did not approve of drunkenness, Jews seem more restrained in their wine consumption.


Might be. So? Doesnt mean Jesus was out of place by drinking wine.