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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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30 Apr 2015, 4:46 pm

I was just watching clips from this opera on roller skates and then I started thinking about how neat it would be to have wheels instead of feet and then I really started contemplating what living land mammals get stuck with on earth. Doesn't anyone else think it's weird land mammals never evolved wheels instead of feet? It makes perfect sense that somehow they would evolve them but none have. I guess smooth surfaces do not exist in nature so hoofs are just better on rough surfaces but then again, humans did invent the wheel eventually so it doesn't seem like we need smooth surfaces to come up with such ideas.



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kraftiekortie
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30 Apr 2015, 5:53 pm

It should be remembered that the wheel is a man-made invention--and wasn't invented until about 5,000 years ago.

Also: unless some great mechanism is promulgated, animals on wheels would be all over the place in all sorts of unwieldy directions. We need rudders, we need feet that grip. Wheels don't grip. It would be a bad adaptation to wild conditions--rocks, sticks, etc.

Then I realized: this is sort of a fun thread LOL



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30 Apr 2015, 6:14 pm

Land vertebrates equipped with living wheels?


When humans first invented wheeled vehicles how did we power them?

They had to be pulled by....beasts of burden!

They had to be pulled by four footed mammals!

So if the animals themselves had been equipped with wheels-then THEY(the animals) would have to have been pulled by other four footed mammals.

Of course there ARE hoop snakes (the wiki article forgot about them). Those critters who put their tails in their mouths, and then roll down mountain sides like a loose bicycle wheel.

OH! I forgot -hoops snakes are mythical-and dont really exist. But you could imagine them evolving them on another planet. But even hoops snakes would depend largely on gravity for torque. Their belly muscles would assist, but they wouldnt be able to roll up hill.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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01 May 2015, 1:59 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Land vertebrates equipped with living wheels?


When humans first invented wheeled vehicles how did we power them?

They had to be pulled by....beasts of burden!

They had to be pulled by four footed mammals!

So if the animals themselves had been equipped with wheels-then THEY(the animals) would have to have been pulled by other four footed mammals.


No because the wheels would be attached to a living creature, not an inanimate object. It would be like living, permanent roller skates for feet and we would have evolved as excellent, highly skilled skaters, much better than we are with roller skates.
Look at an automobile. It has an engine that causes the wheels to spin, it doesn't need to be pulled by an animal or human. It needs no help from either. We would be like autos with wheels.

Quote:
Of course there ARE hoop snakes (the wiki article forgot about them). Those critters who put their tails in their mouths, and then roll down mountain sides like a loose bicycle wheel.

OH! I forgot -hoops snakes are mythical-and dont really exist. But you could imagine them evolving them on another planet. But even hoops snakes would depend largely on gravity for torque. Their belly muscles would assist, but they wouldnt be able to roll up hill.


I didn't think of the possibility of morphing into a wheel and rolling the entire body, like an inner tube. that would be neat, too.



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01 May 2015, 4:19 am

try riding a bike across an uncut field..

Then again this spider knows whats up:



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01 May 2015, 4:25 am

This exact question is exquisitely considered in the Golden Compass series. You'll adore it.


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01 May 2015, 5:36 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

No because the wheels would be attached to a living creature, not an inanimate object. It would be like living, permanent roller skates for feet and we would have evolved as excellent, highly skilled skaters, much better than we are with roller skates.


Earth ain't flat.
Think mountain goat.
Elephants would look like mining trucks and how would monkeys swing in trees?
And when the next wildfire rages all animals would get stuck in the undergrowth.
Not a clever idea.
Just a reminder that evolution is more logical than any human will ever be :mrgreen:



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01 May 2015, 6:29 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Doesn't anyone else think it's weird land mammals never evolved wheels instead of feet? It makes perfect sense that somehow they would evolve them but none have.

OK, let's agree we're not talking about using your whole body as a wheel, just a limb or something.

No, it isn't weird.

The wheel would need to be powered by muscle. It would need to have a blood supply, to provide oxygen and immunity. Let's leave it at that for now. Essentially, this would mean it couldn't just sit on an axis, or it would decompose.

So, you've gotta rotate it. If this happened, all the muscle fibres and blood vessels would become twisted up. If you've ever twisted something, you'll know why that isn't a good idea.

So, a wheel-limb wouldn't work anyway.

But there's a more fundamental problem - evolution is not aiming towards a goal. Instead, structures evolve based on what already exists. Evolution is both constrained by and contingent on the past.

Mammals are vertebrates. Then they're tetrapods i.e. four limbed, and all four are articulated. Then those limbs have become specialised to be located under the body, because that is most efficient. With wheels, balance would be better if they were spread wide.

Put simply, there's no way you can get from the mammalian body plan to wheels.



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01 May 2015, 9:22 am

It could have wheels and legs, it could either drag itself along the ground directly or just push the wheels round. there are plenty of animals who use a combination of limbs and sliding, I guess skids are more efficient over rougher ground where wheels will get stuck (I've got this image of a dinosaur lying on a tank paddling itself along stuck in my head now :)).

There is also the problem of supplying blood and nerves to a part of the body that needs to spin freely. Perhaps it could grow bone wheels inside itself that get popped out along another axle bone when the previous one breaks off. like snakes teeth. :D



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01 May 2015, 9:43 am

milksnake wrote:
There is also the problem of supplying blood and nerves to a part of the body that needs to spin freely. Perhaps it could grow bone wheels inside itself that get popped out along another axle bone when the previous one breaks off. like snakes teeth. :D

Not bone, you'd need to use cartilage or enamel or some such, and even that would probably be too energy intensive (i.e. you'd have to eat more to make each wheel than you'd gain from having it).



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01 May 2015, 11:04 am



Well, truly, the consensus here and science dictates it's literally NOT possible to grow wheels on humans due to human constraints; but it is possible to look like someone moves with roller skates on terrestrial land, if humans learn to move like they once do, to be invisible to prey and predators, like other animals do when they LOOK like they float across terrestrial land.

The way do this is complex physical intelligence, requiring lifelong practice, and necessary for NORMAL animal survival and it is accomplished through core balance, moving in three hundred sixty degrees of a circle on solid earth with other body parts approximating this motion, as possible, with bio-mechanical restraints, through air.

IT IS WHAT evolved FORAGERS NATURALLY DO.

There are several advantages for learning this 'ballerina-like' flow of movement through ALL MOVEMENT in life.

One, is it uses much less energy, as one moves with gravity instead of against it. One can do much more with less calories in any span of time.

Two, is the movement is always variable and never the same, which almost eliminates the type of long term chronic injuries incurred through repetitive movement, named as ergonomic injuries that can potentially become permanent disability; the kind of stuff one learns in any government sponsored safety class.

Ironically, walking in a straight line progresses to the same type of ergonomic injuries, as it too is repetitive movement; however, the safety instructors don't have enough common sense to think of the potential of going against the so-called social norm of order and swirling about in motion on terrestrial land to prevent lower back pain, knee pain, and hip pain from a life spent walking like a robot, on the sidewalks of life.

Anyway, fortunately you've already seen how I move from the video I supplied for you earlier, of how I glide on terrestrial land, aka dance walk; so I don't have to 'wow' the naysayers to present that evidence again here for 'you'.

But never the less, sometimes the 'maverick' has the solution that the 'sheeple' never consider, or have simply forgotten through the illusions of so-called 'smarty pants' modern cultures.

To be at harmony with nature is to be the mythological 'Ninja', come true like the 'invisible' ('metaphor' alert) animals, including some of the primitive folks in the wild as they DO still move, IN THE rain forests.

Almost NO one will do this; as it takes real work, focus, determination, and a REAL UNDERSTANDING Of real EVOLVED HUMAN NATURE, SIMPLY SET FREE AGAIN through innate instinct and intuition.

MODERN humans are 'jelly fish', in comparison to what humans once are, in much fuller potential of physical intelligence, sought, found, employed, developed, utilized, and practiced everyday, all the time now.

It's not a matter of evolving into something new to glide on terrestrial land; it's just remembering the innate instinctual and intuitive way of moving that REAL HUMANS used to do and still do; before the order of the 'faux ordered lands of sidewalks' make humans into 'machines of robot moves'..;)

And the greatest thing of all is that as with all other mammals, balance of body and mind is one and same with balance of emotions and senses; and particularly what some scientists are elevating to the sixth sense of proprioception; where one feels the environment in a 'seeing' way of a 'blind person with vision'.

I do not have to look where I go; I feel the environment with eyes of advanced proprioception.

But haha! while I am acing math and science classes, I am also paying attention to my MUCH GREATER physical intelligence and also acing it; four decades later.

YES, this physical intelligence is far more advanced that any standard IQ ever invented, in an abstract way above and beyond what humans are truly evolved to be from birth; and THAT is just another animal in mind and body balance with the rest of nature aka GOD; moving smoothly on land the way that planets orbit suns; YES, LIKE THE metaphor of the roller skater looking like they defy gravity; as in truth they work with gravity, with wheels or not.

As above so below, inside outside, and all around, applies to all things in life.

Those with more than eyes and ears, can still learn to be more fully human, once again.

Believe it or not; sadly, 'Ripley' still must say; as truly a mind and body out of balance is somewhere around
50 to 90 percent (estimate only) responsible for the misery and suffering anyone can note in the 'crippled' bodies, from age 30, more or less, watching folks in Super-Walmart walk, from a life spent far out of mind and body balance.

Truly it's not much different than being NEO OUT of the MATRIX MOVIE, OR JUST another human before the 'Apple of Knowledge' in so-called faux ways of living an out of balance machine/robot life.

And even science is now showing that movement therapy is an effective therapy to remediate the symptoms of Autism, in this ground breaking MOVE for the reprieve of difficulties with emotional regulation, sensory integration, and cognitive executive functioning in focus and shorter term working memory.

Duh, the Eastern Philosophy of TAI-CHI has understood this remediation for the so-called clinically reported associated symptoms of the so-called disorder of Autism for Centuries; just using different metaphors to describe the same processes of life functioning.

And today, Autistic folks who are pre-disposed to movement disorders from simply not moving with A body stuck in one place doing other stuff like video games, reading, listening to lectures, and all the other stuff that the gold stars and straight A's reinforce, are truly the CANARIES IN THE COAL MINE OF a culture gone insane starting around 12K years ago; in the attempt to separate themselves from the rest of Nature as a kind of GOD human separate, instead of one with the rest of Nature, as One with the GOD of Nature.

But anyway, as usual, your out of the box questions, ANA, can lead to greater wisdom, for those with more than eyes and ears, to see of standard IQ, to re-evolve; and I am DEAD and ALIVE serious about this.

It almost literally kills me; over the course of decades, as the kind of Autistic Burn-out from living a life out of mind and body balance can and WILL EVENTUALLY KILL A PERSON, Autistic or NOT, AS MODERN SCIENCE NOW SHOWS that this type of chronic stress WILL KILL, through the slow destruction of the vital systems in the body for basic SURVIVAL AND ANIMAL HOMEOSTASIS THAT can truly only be gained through a lifetime of a practice of mind and body balance IN GREATER physical intelligence.

SO yeah, this 'little' comment,

CAN potentially, eventually SAVE YOUR LIFE;
AT least FOR A LONGER ONE.

AND My doctors have learned from me; and agree.

Although it's sad that they did NOT get to learn about TAI-CHI, and other associated arts of movement
as science has no way of measuring humans emotions, in balance, by a scientific method that will simply NOT MEASURE
THE HUMAN EXPERIMENT THAT IS MIND AND BODY IN BALANCE; AS IT IS a non-repeatable experiment,
when operated as evolved, in proper ways of 'invisible' human beings.

To repeat physical intelligence is to lose it. Any Kung FU Expert will tell you THAT;

IF THEY ARE really an expert. TRUE PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE IS ART, AND NEVER EVER
SCIENCE, ALONE.

AND THAT IS PART OF WHY, as whole; science, philosophy, and religion that relies on
systemizing ways of living, is almost useless to REAL HUMAN HEALTH AND WELL BEING.

THOSE who truly live by the imaginative and creative ART of innate, instinct and intuition,
live well in balance and prosper.

Those who 'think' that everything in life is run by instructions and guidelines,
fall to the way side, sooner than later.

To truly move IN MIND AND BODY BALANCE is NOT TO THINK with words alone.

And that's just a new-guru saying that means learn to use your frigging body as ART

better than robot, on the restricted sidewalks of life, with or without

WHEELS.

AND INVENT A

REAL NEW WHEEL

OF LIFE FOR YOU.

So yeah, ROLL ON
BABY, AND 'FULLIVE'..:)

AND here's that video again, for the
fools who think it looks 'gay'; better
to live AND
DEAL WITH REAL
FOOLS who suffer;
while we CAN AND WILL
enjoy bliss.

ONE only needs to be
brave enough
to LIVE.

And truly to ACT DIFFERENT
AND learn to tolerate the
naysayers of life,
is to be
STRONG AS A LION
WITH
butterfly wings...;)

I deal with these patriarchal so-called
macho fools almost every day in life;
Now that I weigh close to 240 LBS,
they do it behind my back that
is always watching forward or
in reverse; all directions too.
All I have to do is show 'em
some quick Bruce Lee
lightening fast kicks,
or link 'em up
to my video
of me
leg pressing 930LBS with my legs,
14 times slowly and surely on a
parallel leg press machine with
my arms raised in the air, as
no other human is evidenced
to do on YouTUBE.

IT brings to light and gravity
what lightening fast kicks
and that much power
COULD DO, IF
NEED BE.

AND THE BULLIES
SIMPLY FLEE, WITH
their 'tales' between
their legs.

To be clear I am presenting these videos
for evidence to show people what I am
saying is TRUTH.

I am getting frigging sick and tired of 'little
boys or girls'; THE SAME kind of intellectual
bullies I deal with who are physical
bullies in 'real life', telling me I am trying to
promote myself on this website, when all I have
ever done here
is try to help folks.

'Grow up, and get a spine.' And yes, that's
a real literal metaphor for gaining physical
intelligence, and not an insult, in 'real life'.

I did it; and if a permanently disabled person
with 19 disorders can do it; TRUST ME,
YOU CAN TOO.

That's just tough love; and while I got all the
talk, no one ever showed me how to actually
do it in life. Consider this a favor or do not;

but never the less,

IT IS TRUTH; and the crux of all philosophy
is arriving at just that; for folks who are
not afraid to

CHANGE, AND listen to the sages
of old

and OR

NEW.





And yeah, while one might think the first video makes no sense, in
context to all of this.

Please try to think with more than words and live more FULLY with
wheels of life that can, do and WILL eventually equal A LIFE OF
Unconditional LOVING LIFE AND EVERYTHING ELSE TOO,
with emotional and sensory balance.

And TRUST ME OR NOT;
that is a mighty cool place
to live,
ALWAYS NOW.

SAME THING the sages of
ages are talking about
NOW.


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naturalplastic
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01 May 2015, 1:08 pm

You can't grow living wheels on a creature. Even if the wheels are made of dead tissue like finger nails, or horses' hooves, it still has to be constantly generated and regenerated from living tissue. You cant do that for a free spinning wheel. Its not clear that there is even any advantage to wheels over limbs in locomotion for living creatures that dont live on paved roads, and there is no evolutionary route to take to evolve axle/wheel combinations in animals that wouldnt kill off the creature's linneage before it reached fully evolved wheels (which wouldn't like benifit the creature anyway).



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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02 May 2015, 1:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
You can't grow living wheels on a creature. Even if the wheels are made of dead tissue like finger nails, or horses' hooves, it still has to be constantly generated and regenerated from living tissue. You cant do that for a free spinning wheel. Its not clear that there is even any advantage to wheels over limbs in locomotion for living creatures that dont live on paved roads, and there is no evolutionary route to take to evolve axle/wheel combinations in animals that wouldnt kill off the creature's linneage before it reached fully evolved wheels (which wouldn't like benifit the creature anyway).

Sure you can! What do you think skin cells constantly do? They die, fall off and new ones take their place. It's exactly what you described and when you consider what has evolved to keep the living in motion, it is not far fetched in the slightest to imagine a natural wheel evolving to aid locomotion.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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02 May 2015, 3:17 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Doesn't anyone else think it's weird land mammals never evolved wheels instead of feet? It makes perfect sense that somehow they would evolve them but none have.

OK, let's agree we're not talking about using your whole body as a wheel, just a limb or something.

No, it isn't weird.

The wheel would need to be powered by muscle. It would need to have a blood supply, to provide oxygen and immunity. Let's leave it at that for now. Essentially, this would mean it couldn't just sit on an axis, or it would decompose.

So, you've gotta rotate it. If this happened, all the muscle fibres and blood vessels would become twisted up. If you've ever twisted something, you'll know why that isn't a good idea.

So, a wheel-limb wouldn't work anyway.

But there's a more fundamental problem - evolution is not aiming towards a goal. Instead, structures evolve based on what already exists. Evolution is both constrained by and contingent on the past.

Mammals are vertebrates. Then they're tetrapods i.e. four limbed, and all four are articulated. Then those limbs have become specialised to be located under the body, because that is most efficient. With wheels, balance would be better if they were spread wide.

Put simply, there's no way you can get from the mammalian body plan to wheels.



One possibility is your body becomes a wheel kinda like the inner tube rolling down the hill. We are not limited to picturing wheels on feet rather the many ways the wheel concept could be used for motion evolution-wise.