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Corvus
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29 Mar 2007, 1:01 pm

How can anyone pick one as right? I don't understand the 100% full belief in 1 religion. I don't understand the process one goes through to somehow discount the others as 'wrong' while maintaining theirs is 'right.'

I know ALL religions share similar VALUES and MORALS that even an ATHEIST would believe, but I cannot comprehend why people believe in a religion full out - all the stories, theories, etc. I don't understand how those can be believed but others beliefs 'discounted' for the same illogics that can discount their own.

I don't understand why 'those who follow the religions' fail to understand their own contradictions. I don't understand how a religious person can call me 'closed minded' for running their belief against logic, it failing, and me not believing it (while DOING the questioning). I don't understand how, for instance Christianity, is viewed differently by those who follow the same belief. I don't understand how that difference exists if it IS the truth.

I've talked to christians who want you to listen but do not want to listen to you. They just keep stating that their religion is 'truth' despite the fact is goes against REAL truth such as "logic" (or reality) and when you call them on it, they make something up like 'its beyond our comprehension' or "thats the way God wanted it" which are both full out, 100% cop-outs.

Why do you follow and believe your RELIGION and why do you think it's right? Do you follow it blindly and just ignore the fact its not 100% accurate?

I'm NOT asking about spirituality. I'm not discussing morals and values and "peace." I'm discussing everything else that religion is. The conformity, the exclusiveness, etc.

EDIT: FYI, this isnt christian specific, despite the fact I never said it was (its all religions hence the f*****g title). I have to point this out like how McDonalds has to point out that their Coffee is "hot" because it was brought to my attention.



Last edited by Corvus on 30 Mar 2007, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jolly_magpie
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29 Mar 2007, 4:36 pm

Corvus wrote:

I know ALL religions share similar VALUES and MORALS that even an ATHEIST would believe,


Not true. Islamics think it's OK to kill non-Islamics.

Corvus wrote:
I don't understand why 'those who follow the religions' fail to understand their own contradictions. I don't understand how a religious person can call me 'closed minded' for running their belief against logic, it failing, and me not believing it (while DOING the questioning). I don't understand how, for instance Christianity, is viewed differently by those who follow the same belief. I don't understand how that difference exists if it IS the truth.


Because most religions rely on asinine circular logic.

Corvus wrote:
I've talked to christians who want you to listen but do not want to listen to you. They just keep stating that their religion is 'truth' despite the fact is goes against REAL truth such as "logic" (or reality) and when you call them on it, they make something up like 'its beyond our comprehension' or "thats the way God wanted it" which are both full out, 100% cop-outs.


Agreed. That has always bugged me too.

Don't bother trying to pick which one is right, because they are ALL wrong. All the "holy books" ever written were cooked up by MEN. NONE have any special insight, they are mostly high-sounding gibberish. Just think, none of them have any knowledge that the people of the time they were written had no access to.

For example, why don't they mention E=MC2? If a holy book were to explain the relationship between matter and energy, even in allegorical form, I would convert in a second.


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MolotovCocktail
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29 Mar 2007, 5:42 pm

Belief in religion is based a lot more on faith than on logic. Often people will believe in something as a way to give certainty in their life and also works to relieve stress and give them hope.

jolly_magpie wrote:

Not true. Islamics think it's OK to kill non-Islamics.



Cite this please.

In late antiquity and in early modern times the Islamic empires and nations allowed their subjects to believe in their original faith (Mostly Judaism and Christianity) for a price of a higher tax and/or service in the military. Conversion to Islam in such places allowed a person to guarantee citizenship and active participation in government affairs.

jolly_magpie wrote:
For example, why don't they mention E=MC2? If a holy book were to explain the relationship between matter and energy, even in allegorical form, I would convert in a second.


The one thing you have to remember is that scientific equations and data mean far less than most people, including you, make them out to be. This equation is not relevant to religion.



Last edited by MolotovCocktail on 29 Mar 2007, 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jolly_magpie
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29 Mar 2007, 5:49 pm

Start here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/

I think it's the section on Dhimmitude.

Also see Jihad:

As we have seen, contrary to the widespread insistence that true Islam is pacific even if a handful of its adherents are violent, the Islamic sources make clear that engaging in violence against non-Muslims is a central and indispensable principle to Islam. Islam is less a personal faith than a political ideology that exists in a fundamental and permanent state of war with non-Islamic civilizations, cultures, and individuals. The Islamic holy texts outline a social, governmental, and economic system for all mankind. Those cultures and individuals who do not submit to Islamic governance exist in an ipso facto state of rebellion with Allah and must be forcibly brought into submission. The misbegotten term "Islamo-fascism" is wholly redundant: Islam itself is a kind of fascism that achieves its full and proper form only when it assumes the powers of the state.


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Corvus
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29 Mar 2007, 5:52 pm

Quote:
Belief in religion is based a lot more on faith than on logic. Often people will believe in something as a way to give certainty in their life and also works to relieve stress and give them hope.


Hope and stress relief are not ONLY found in religion. I'm quite confident to explain how anyone would get 'stress relief' derived from religion (cognitive thinking being one of them). This wasn't my point as I understand the 'faith' aspect (though I believe I found a way to describe how 'faith' works)

However, that still does not explain the belief in creationism and the like. Those are what I'm trying to discuss and get to the bottom of.



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29 Mar 2007, 5:59 pm

jolly_magpie wrote:
Start here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/

I think it's the section on Dhimmitude.

Also see Jihad:

As we have seen, contrary to the widespread insistence that true Islam is pacific even if a handful of its adherents are violent, the Islamic sources make clear that engaging in violence against non-Muslims is a central and indispensable principle to Islam. Islam is less a personal faith than a political ideology that exists in a fundamental and permanent state of war with non-Islamic civilizations, cultures, and individuals. The Islamic holy texts outline a social, governmental, and economic system for all mankind. Those cultures and individuals who do not submit to Islamic governance exist in an ipso facto state of rebellion with Allah and must be forcibly brought into submission. The misbegotten term "Islamo-fascism" is wholly redundant: Islam itself is a kind of fascism that achieves its full and proper form only when it assumes the powers of the state.



Jihad means literally "striving in the way of God", particularly moral struggle. It can range anywhere from a movement to an inner struggle of the self. It is not to be confused with the media's definition of Jihad.

For more information:
link: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelati ... ssary.html



jolly_magpie
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29 Mar 2007, 6:06 pm

So violent Jihad does not exist? It's all just sitting around in quiet contemplation?


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MolotovCocktail
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29 Mar 2007, 6:07 pm

Corvus wrote:
Hope and stress relief are not ONLY found in religion. I'm quite confident to explain how anyone would get 'stress relief' derived from religion (cognitive thinking being one of them). This wasn't my point as I understand the 'faith' aspect (though I believe I found a way to describe how 'faith' works)

However, that still does not explain the belief in creationism and the like. Those are what I'm trying to discuss and get to the bottom of.


As i said before, it is based much more on faith than logic. The reason for the belief in creationism has much more to do with the distrust with modern science than as a legitimate belief. Also, dogmatic belief in creationism is restricted to a very small minority (They just simply voice their opinions more). As I said before, it is due to their inability to realize that scientific data means far less than these people make them out to be.



MolotovCocktail
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29 Mar 2007, 6:09 pm

jolly_magpie wrote:
So violent Jihad does not exist? It's all just sitting around in quiet contemplation?



Jihad does not entail violence. It is mostly a non-military struggle.



Corvus
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29 Mar 2007, 6:31 pm

MolotovCocktail wrote:
As i said before, it is based much more on faith than logic. The reason for the belief in creationism has much more to do with the distrust with modern science than as a legitimate belief. Also, dogmatic belief in creationism is restricted to a very small minority (They just simply voice their opinions more). As I said before, it is due to their inability to realize that scientific data means far less than these people make them out to be.


I don't know so much about that. The reason I say that is because my christian friend DOES use science but only when it supports HIS arguments. When science supports evolution, he completely disregards that. I'm interested in knowing what a closed mind entails. Not all distrust science.

So far, it appears the people who have replied to this thread are open to beliefs, one way or another (you tell me). I guess I'm still waiting for the christians and jews and muslims and etc. to respond.

I'm doing personal research on "closed minds," right now



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29 Mar 2007, 6:37 pm

What I mean by distrust is that these people are under the delusion that they think that modern science is disproving the existence of god, when in fact it does not make any attempt to do so.



skafather84
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29 Mar 2007, 6:41 pm

jolly_magpie wrote:
Corvus wrote:

I know ALL religions share similar VALUES and MORALS that even an ATHEIST would believe,


Not true. Islamics think it's OK to kill non-Islamics.



that's BS and a racist misinterpretation of islam that's pushed by the extremists who believe they are justified.



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29 Mar 2007, 6:42 pm

Corvus wrote:
The reason I say that is because my christian friend DOES use science but only when it supports HIS arguments. When science supports evolution, he completely disregards that. I'm interested in knowing what a closed mind entails.


again, read my statement on this matter below. People either take them to mean that it disproves their beliefs, or that they somehow prove their beliefs to be correct. Science does not make any attempt to prove or disprove religion; then again, religion is not science in any case.

MolotovCocktail wrote:
As I said before, it is due to their inability to realize that scientific data means far less than these people make them out to be.



Last edited by MolotovCocktail on 29 Mar 2007, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MolotovCocktail
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29 Mar 2007, 6:43 pm

skafather84 wrote:
jolly_magpie wrote:
Corvus wrote:

I know ALL religions share similar VALUES and MORALS that even an ATHEIST would believe,


Not true. Islamics think it's OK to kill non-Islamics.



that's BS and a racist misinterpretation of islam that's pushed by the extremists who believe they are justified.


Finally, I found one person who has a clear head! :P :P :P



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29 Mar 2007, 7:12 pm

jolly_magpie wrote:


Geez, that's not a hate-mongering site or anything. :roll: This'll all blow over some day in the future. I guess it's kind of like how Americans hated Germans around the first two World Wars.

From what I've heard, Mohamed encouraged people to respect religious diversity.

Anyways, back on topic, I completely agree about religions. Many of them dictate that they are the one true faith, but honestly, which one do you believe? Obviously, it's usually the one that a person was brought up on. To top it off, any time someone disagrees with something in the holy texts, they can go and say that they're wrong and sway other people to their side. For instance, Henry VIII wanted a divorce, but the Catholic Church wouldn't allow it. What does he do? He breaks away, says that Catholicism is wrong, and his kingdom follows.

Needless to say, I am very irreligious.



Corvus
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29 Mar 2007, 7:25 pm

MolotovCocktail wrote:
What I mean by distrust is that these people are under the delusion that they think that modern science is disproving the existence of god, when in fact it does not make any attempt to do so.


Ahh I see - Good point :idea: