Should The Conferdate Flag Be Banned Entirely?

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Should The Confederate Flag Be Banned Entirely?
Yes, because it is a symbol of racism. 35%  35%  [ 9 ]
No, because it is a symbol of Southern pride. 35%  35%  [ 9 ]
Does it matter? It will put back up regardless of what the people think. 31%  31%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 26

AspieUtah
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23 Jun 2015, 7:25 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they represented the conservative wing of the Democratic [P]arty, which was mainly in the south....

In for a wing, in for a party. I agree, however, that the northern Democrats tolerated the southern Democrats for the sake of remaining relevant to and somewhat successful in national politics. But, that fact, on its own, is also pretty damning. They sold out to the southern Democrats in exchange for winning nationally.


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23 Jun 2015, 7:42 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they represented the conservative wing of the Democratic [P]arty, which was mainly in the south....

In for a wing, in for a party. I agree, however, that the northern Democrats tolerated the southern Democrats for the sake of remaining relevant to and somewhat successful in national politics. But, that fact, on its own, is also pretty damning. They sold out to the southern Democrats in exchange for winning nationally.


Thank you! I swear I get nauseous sometimes at these relentless appeals to history, in order to say "well this is the racist party", instead of critically assessing the particulars of what is going on right now. Either primary party ends up looking just as bad anyways.


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Jacoby
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23 Jun 2015, 8:17 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Jacoby wrote:

What about the fact that slavery existed much longer under the flag of the United States? Singling out the Confederate flag to me seems like an attempt to pawn off a dark aspect of our nation's history as some vanquished foreign apparition when its apart of all our history. I get that its a symbol to rally against and if people want to take it down then that's their choice, I don't see any reason for it to banned.


The difference is that the US flag and the country it represents is a work in progress. We're still trying to make that more perfect union. We should never forget the mistakes and injustices committed under the flag, but that's not what the flag stands for today.

The problem with confederate flags is that they're kinda stuck in time. It was originally used as the battlefield symbol of a White Supremacist government, then it was used as the symbol of a domestic terrorist organization...

Sure, you could argue that most individuals (at least today) who fly that flag aren't active, violent racists, but every official use of that flag has been in the name of violent suppression of black American citizens.

It is not unreasonable for people to object to having this flag fly over government property. Especially when that government is now supposed to serve everyone equally, regardless of race.


I'm not sure I'd say the the Confederate flag was the symbol of the KKK, they might of utilized it but they also have extensively wrapped themselves in the flag of United States as well. The Klan started out in the South after the Civil War but it spread much further than that, northern racism deserves much more attention than it gets. I doubt many people think of the cross as being associated with the Klan and fwiw far more people have suffered under the cross than the Confederate battle flag or the flag of the United States. That's my problem here, why is it that the Confederate battle flag is singled out as this evil thing when evil has been committed under every flag? The whole work in progress thing doesn't really excuse the crimes which continue to be committed even today, someone could just as easily say the Confederacy was a work in progress and that eventually it would reformed itself as well. You can agree or disagree with that last part there, my point was that you can pretty much justifiably take issue with almost any flag or symbol so why is one okay but not others? You can defend all of them, the confederate flag to many in the South is a symbol of Southern pride to recognize their ancestors that fought and died under it( something like 30% of white men in South at the time died, most of which didn't own any slaves) So while the flag of the US might mean something to you, it might mean something entirely different to someone else and I can't say Native Americans for example have any less of grievance towards the flag of the US than blacks might with the Confederate flag. I actually think there are some colleges around the US that are trying remove displays of the US flag because whatever group there sees it as a symbol of oppression.

I don't care if they want to display the flag or not, there is a process to removing it in SC state law and if that's what the people want then by all means but I think its silly the demonization that has happened and the lack of consistency.

thought this was an interesting blog on The Hill

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/s ... -flag-goes



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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23 Jun 2015, 8:20 pm

Tomorrow, if it's still being aired like the cable guide says it is, I am going to watch Dukes of Hazzard when it comes on TVland just to see if the Dodge Charger still has the name General Lee and the stars and bars on top or if they somehow edited it out, or, if they stopped airing the show altogether.



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23 Jun 2015, 8:34 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:


Great, where am I going to buy Pantera merch now? :P



Kraichgauer
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23 Jun 2015, 9:00 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they represented the conservative wing of the Democratic [P]arty, which was mainly in the south....

In for a wing, in for a party. I agree, however, that the northern Democrats tolerated the southern Democrats for the sake of remaining relevant to and somewhat successful in national politics. But, that fact, on its own, is also pretty damning. They sold out to the southern Democrats in exchange for winning nationally.


Or did they sell out the southern wing because civil rights was the right thing to do?
Incidentally, not all young southerners agreed with the sins of their ancestors - Bill Clinton had made his hatred of racism abundantly clear.


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AspieUtah
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23 Jun 2015, 9:10 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they represented the conservative wing of the Democratic [P]arty, which was mainly in the south....

In for a wing, in for a party. I agree, however, that the northern Democrats tolerated the southern Democrats for the sake of remaining relevant to and somewhat successful in national politics. But, that fact, on its own, is also pretty damning. They sold out to the southern Democrats in exchange for winning nationally.

Or did they sell out the southern wing because civil rights was the right thing to do?
Incidentally, not all young southerners agreed with the sins of their ancestors - Bill Clinton had made his hatred of racism abundantly clear.

DailyCaller.com: "Confederate Flag Campaign Pins of Both Clintons' Pasts" (June 23, 2015)
( http://www.dailycaller.com/2015/06/23/c ... tons-pasts )

DailyCaller.com: "Flashback: As Governor, Bill Clinton Honored Confederacy on Arkansas Flag" (June 20, 2015)
( http://www.dailycaller.com/2015/06/20/f ... ansas-flag ) [/quote]


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blauSamstag
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23 Jun 2015, 9:27 pm

You know the weird thing about the conservative faithful is that they attack an enemy that doesn't exist.

I mean instead of knowing their enemy and hitting it at home and/or where it counts. They rail at something that liberals don't even recognize instead.



Fugu
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23 Jun 2015, 9:31 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they represented the conservative wing of the Democratic [P]arty, which was mainly in the south....

In for a wing, in for a party. I agree, however, that the northern Democrats tolerated the southern Democrats for the sake of remaining relevant to and somewhat successful in national politics. But, that fact, on its own, is also pretty damning. They sold out to the southern Democrats in exchange for winning nationally.
man you love to move the goalposts don't you?
How is "not being racist as*holes" selling someone out?



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23 Jun 2015, 10:02 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, they represented the conservative wing of the Democratic [P]arty, which was mainly in the south....

In for a wing, in for a party. I agree, however, that the northern Democrats tolerated the southern Democrats for the sake of remaining relevant to and somewhat successful in national politics. But, that fact, on its own, is also pretty damning. They sold out to the southern Democrats in exchange for winning nationally.

Or did they sell out the southern wing because civil rights was the right thing to do?
Incidentally, not all young southerners agreed with the sins of their ancestors - Bill Clinton had made his hatred of racism abundantly clear.

DailyCaller.com: "Confederate Flag Campaign Pins of Both Clintons' Pasts" (June 23, 2015)
( http://www.dailycaller.com/2015/06/23/c ... tons-pasts )

DailyCaller.com: "Flashback: As Governor, Bill Clinton Honored Confederacy on Arkansas Flag" (June 20, 2015)
( http://www.dailycaller.com/2015/06/20/f ... ansas-flag )
[/quote]

So Clinton played on the sentiments of his constituents. But how does that compare to his actions?


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AspieUtah
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23 Jun 2015, 10:05 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
So Clinton played on the sentiments of his constituents. But how does that compare to his actions?

Pandering is now a virtue?


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23 Jun 2015, 10:47 pm

I still don't see the big deal.

The Stars and Stripes are worst if you use oppression, bigotry, and violence as your yardstick.

Hell, the US went to war and killed far more people than the CSA ever did back in 2003 with Iraq, and for arguably worst reasons (they got banned weapons!). So, you can't really use "the US has changed" as an argument.



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23 Jun 2015, 10:54 pm

Well yeah, I'm currently having an argument with a friend on facebook about how when people desecrate the US flag i either figure they are trying to provoke a reaction or they are just a dumbass, but when people fly the confederate flag and try to argue that it has anything to do with anything other than slavery, they are either lying or full of crap.

Our country does things I can't be proud of. I imagine that this is a common sentiment among all major political stripes, though some may deny it in public. We have done regrettable things. We have even done horrible things.

But when palestinian teenagers burn an american flag they are protesting a country that doesn't exist, because they don't know who or what we are or what re really believe. They have only swallowed the line of BS that their politicians fed them, and they are acting on it. I feel sorry for them because it will be harder for them to accept peace in the future. If they get the chance.

When people in america desecrate the flag they are just trying to provoke a reaction, and i decline to be provoked. I understand that they have complaints - valid and invalid, but all the same to them, complaints. Their provocative act is at worst a distraction.

And our soldiers take an oath to protect the constitution, not the flag. Dying for a flag is pretty stupid, imho. Compared to the constitution anyway.

As far as the confederate flag is concerned, this is what the vice president of the confederacy said:

Quote:
The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.



Dillogic
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23 Jun 2015, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.


Which was pretty much the opinion of Lincoln, other than the slavery part.

I bet the CSA would eventually come to accept equal rights for all just the same if they "won", just like Lincoln and the Union had to (slavery, notwithstanding. Thinking and treating someone as lesser to you, without enslaving them, isn't really "better"). The US totally messed up Iraq without enslaving them.



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23 Jun 2015, 11:28 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Quote:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.


Which was pretty much the opinion of Lincoln, other than the slavery part.

I bet the CSA would eventually come to accept equal rights for all just the same if they "won", just like Lincoln and the Union had to (slavery, notwithstanding. Thinking and treating someone as lesser to you, without enslaving them, isn't really "better"). The US totally messed up Iraq without enslaving them.


Don't we do that now with undocumented hispanic immigrants?



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24 Jun 2015, 1:34 am

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
So Clinton played on the sentiments of his constituents. But how does that compare to his actions?

Pandering is now a virtue?


His actions speak louder than his words.


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