Nonverbal learning disorder

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Because 80% of all people with AS could be defined as NLD and that would make it pretty useless to define a distinct group of people if it encompased 80% of another group of people. What is the point of a diagnostic entity if it doesn't define a distinct group?

Perhaps you could think of it as AS-lite, better social skills, more perceptual/visual problems, fewer intense interests? It is similar to, but distrinct from, AS.

I recently met a woman who was diagnosed with NLD, and yes, she did seem a little different from me and others with AS that I know. I felt bad for her, because she was so unhappy about her perceived lack of social skills, and she seemed to want to "fit in" much more than a lot of us with AS do. Our special interests tend to give us a sense of purpose and enjoyment that I don't think the NLD folks feel. Plus, since they are probably so much closer to being able to actually fit in, having NLD is probably much more stressful emotionally at times.

It took quite a few assessments to determine whether or not my 13 year old son has AS or NVLD.
Tanner was first assessed by the school psychologist and was found to have a 19 point split between his verbal intelligence and perceptual intelligence favouring the verbal.
This indicated a severe non-verbal learning disability. However, NVLD is caused by an inability of the brain to access information from the right hemispere of the brain, almost as if there is a brain injury. This means that all non-verbal information is not accessed. It also affects spatial development which means that knowing the relationship of your body to your surroundings are affected, reading such things as maps and charts is difficult if not impossible and sense of direction is confused. Social ability is impaired because of the inability to read body language and facial expression and to understand sarcasm and hidden meanings. NVLD also generally causes clumsy use of the left side of the body as it is governed by the right brain.
AS shares alot of these characterisitics. However, Tanner does not have spatial relationship problems (maps and statistics are his obsession) , he is left-handed(impossible for NVLD) and he does have some ability to read people and use humour. These were the determining factors for dx. His dx is now AS with non-verbal learning disability (not disorder). Confusing, isn't it?

Huh, my daughter is left handed and has the label NLD (and PDD-NOS). She does not meet the criteria for AS. She meets all the criteria of NLD including problems with math, perceptual problems and map reading.

My son is left-handed, his VIQ and PIQ differences are even larger than my daughter's. He has intense special interests and meets the criteria of AS. He is also more socially impaired.

Some neurologists believe that left-handedness is a form of brain damage. 20% of mentally ret*d people are left-handed.

Edit: I just checked and found many children with NVLD are left-handed. I think your school psych is wrong about that. I trust my neuropsychologist.

Last edited by SeriousGirl on 19 Apr 2007, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

From Wikipedia:

And



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_ ... g_disorder



I think a lot of AS people have worse social issues or "reading people issues" then NLD's. but I bet it goes both ways too. You can't compare apples and oranges, they are both fruit (have social issues) but which has worse social problems, who is to say? That is highly individualistic. Some people my be AS with "some" social skills or they may have no social skills. Some may have NLD with "some" social skills,or they may have no social skills. The point is, if you are AS or NLD, you are going to have moderate to severe problems with socialization.

Last edited by EarthCalling on 19 Apr 2007, 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I suppose it's possible that not all right brain function is lacking in some individuals, but 2 psychiatrists and an occupational therapist did numerous tests on his left and right body abilities and told me the same information. That information is also in all of the resources I have read on NVLD. There is also proof, though, that if a part of a person's brain is removed (as in epilepsy) or damaged the other side can pick up the function so I guess the brain is too big a mystery to say anything for positively sure. Im happy with his diagnosis because in Canada NVLD is not coded as a disability and children do not receive any special aid or funding.

I'm not sure if anyone really knows what is going on exactly in any one person with any label. My daughter has all the problems associated with NLD, the left-right problems, spatial and perceptual, short-term memory problems, executive functioning, etc. She also has the diagnosis of PDD-NOS so she does get services. She is, however, more socially able than my AS son.

Tanner's final diagnosis came from a child psychiatrist who specializes in autistic spectrum disorders. His therapist had her come from Calgary to see him because of all the conflicting characteristics he has.

I have NLD (technically it was diagnosed as Learning Disorder-NOS because NLD isn't in the DSM-IV), and although I have many Aspie-like traits like poor eye contact, difficulty adjusting to novel situations, and stimming, I don't have the "special interests", although I do go through periods where I get obsessed with something (for example spending ten hours a day reading about computer components online this summer), but they are short-lived, usually not lasting beyond a couple of months at the most. The person who tested me for NLD considered AS, but I didn't think I had it, and neither did she.

I have a 39 point split between my verbal index and perceptual index (147 and 108 respectively), and the neuropsych testing actually found an even greater difference between my verbal and nonverbal skills, more on the order of 3-4 standard deviations of difference, probably because on the performance part of IQ tests they are not testing purely nonverbal skills, and often verbal skills can compensate to some extent. On more pure tests of nonverbal ability I usually score in the impaired range, or at least low average.

I have impairments in visual-motor coordination, visuo-spatial perception/memory/organization, and tactile perception. I also have left-sided weakness and some problems with inattention to my left visual field (worse problems with the left side is common with NLD). I also really struggle with eye contact and reading nonverbal cues, especially when it comes to noticing whether someone is "kidding" or not. I've always had friends, but I don't do too much socially because I have Social Anxiety Disorder (also common with NLD). For instance, this entire semester I've only had one social activity (a dinner with a friend). I do talk with people before class though, and I have worked with people on group projects. I like talking with people, but I find it difficult and stressful, and can't do it for any length of time before I need a break.

Although I do struggle with social issues, what I consider my greatest area of deficit is in finding my way around. I have to specifically describe my route verbally (ex. "Walk through the main doors. Continue straight towards the Psych Department sign. When you reach the sign, turn left, and the first door on the right is the mailroom), and then memorize it that way. Otherwise, I get totally lost. It's a real problem when driving, although I do have a GPS, which helps somewhat. Often, I end up wandering around until I find what I'm looking for (especially in buildings). If I don't follow my usual route, I very quickly get disoriented. Hence my chosen name: "LostInSpace." Because I frequently am! Anyway, I hope this was helpful for anyone comparing AS and NLD. Some people with NLD have less trouble with spatial issues and more trouble with social ones, though, or more difficulty with motor skills. Although I do have problems with motor coordination, my handwriting is actually fine (although I hold my pen really weirdly because I feel like it gives me more control), so dysgraphia is not necessarily a problem with NLD.
Wow, this was really long. If I think of anything else, I'll add it.

Oh, I also don't have any problems with math, while most NLD-ers do. The only times I have had trouble with math were with some aspects of geometry. I did well in Calculus my senior year of high school, but when I tried to take Multi-variable Calculus in college, I had to drop it. It's extremely spatial. You have to be able to work with four dimensions, and draw ridiculously complex, but very pretty diagrams. I did very well on the math SAT and GRE though (710 and 740, respectively), although those scores were still lower than my verbal scores (800). So with less abstract math I do fine, but there is a limit to how far I can go with it.

Last edited by LostInSpace on 19 Apr 2007, 2:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

(Sorry about all the small messages. I don't quite have the hang of this chat thing yet.)

I find it amazing that 7 months ago I did not know anything about NVLD or AS. I didn't know that my kids or husband have it. The amount of information out there is positively astounding and overwhelming isn't it?

I wasn't hyperactive as a kid, so that's not a prerequisite for NLD. I was very shy though, and I also did cry over some things that wouldn't have bothered other kids (although possibly they didn't have the same problems with them as I did). For instance, in third grade our classrooms were on the second floor of the school rather than the first, and also we were more independent in going from class to class that year. Well, that was not good news for me! I would come home crying every day that I couldn't find my way around the second floor! Also, I do have a tendency to overreact in conversations sometimes, I think probably because I have difficulty interpreting the motivation behind what someone says. So if someone is just trying to "stir things up," I totally fall for it and overreact.

Regarding getting a professional diagnosis, if there are any universities in your area, you could contact the psych department about getting a neuropsych evaluation. That's what I did (the first time I read about NLD, I saw myself in it, and was determined to get an evaluation). My dad probably has NLD, too, by the way. Is there anyone else in your family with the same problems you have?

Reading over the difference between your verbal and nonverbal abilities in school made me remember a funny story from when I was in fourth grade. In fourth grade in New York in 1994, we had to take these standardized tests called the CTBS tests (don't know what they stood for). These were the first standardized tests we'd ever taken, and the first time we'd had to bubble in answers on scantron sheets for a test. Well, having the issues that I do, I had trouble understanding how the bubbling worked. I thought I had it figured out, but for the Reading subtest, which was the first one, I had four answer slots left on my answer sheet, even though I'd answered all the test questions. I didn't know why I had these extra slots, so I asked my teacher if we were supposed to have extra slots left. She told me no, and I was really confused. When they scored the tests though, I had done abominably on the Reading section (I must have figured out my bubbling problem for the later subtests), which confused my teacher, since I was a great reader. I guess she remembered my question, because she decided to let me retake the test, with extra instruction on using the scantron sheets. I retook the Reading section, and this time, I got a perfect score! Just a little story about how sometimes poor nonverbal abilities can get in the way of demonstrating your verbal skills, and why it is important for kids to have teachers who keep both eyes open for that sort of discrepancy between ability and performance.

I've read that people with NLD do tend to have more problems on the left-side of their body, because it is generally the right hemisphere which is more affected by the disorder (it is considered a white-matter disorder and the right hemisphere has far more white matter tracts than the left). For instance, in my case I have left side weakness (my left grip is only in the 10th percentile), and some inattention to my left visual field. HOWEVER, my visual-motor coordination impairment is worse on my right side, and I tend to bang into things on my right side (doors, walls, etc.).

Of course, left-handedness *is* often believed to be more common in people with some sort of brain damage (as you mentioned), and also, weaker lateralization of function is found with left-handed people. So it could be that in those left-handed people with NLD, the damage was mostly to their left side of the brain rather than the right side, but because of weaker or atypical lateralization of function, it had the same kind of effect (NLD) as in people with typical brain organization whose right hemisphere is damaged.

People with lots of left-handedness in their family also tend to have weaker or atypical lateralization of function, which is interesting because even though I'm right-handed, lots of people in my family are left-handed. My parents (who are psychologists) wonder if I have bilateral representation of function because my NLD affects both sides of my body in different ways (as described earlier).

it's just confusing me casue you describe it in this way.... but then you say that you think it's impossible to have both due to the conlicting traits.... that's what's confusing

My AS son was hand ambiguous as small child and started writing with his left hand. He holds his fork with his right hand. He has an IQ spread similar to yours regarding performance vs. verbal. He has stilted, pedantic speech and special interests of AS. He can read maps and was good in geometry. His mode of learning is the written word. He teaches himself anything he is interested in and I do the same.

I have AS, am right-handed, poor in geometry, but good in algebra and calculus, and can't find my way out of a paper bag because I have no sense of direction. I have good short-term memory though and better executive functioning than my daughter. She has the best social skills of the three of us and would be thought socially normal by people who meet her. There is nothing odd about her social interactions at this point. She has no intense interests except music, which is typical of someone her age. She is a talented musician. Her mode of learning is speech.

The more I write about this, the more confused I make myself.

My daughter has been evaluated by a neuropsychologist, developmental psychologist, neurologist, psychiatrist (for depression), speech pathologist and occupational therapist. None have mentioned that left-handedness contradicts NVLD.

I simply see AS as a more severe form of NVLD. Say you have a set of NVLD people and a set of AS people, then a union of those sets wouldn't work because even though 80% of the AS people would fall into the union, 0% of the NVLD people would be in that union of sets. AS can account for most of the traits of NVLD. It's not so much conflicting but that AS encompasses most of NVLD, but NVLD excludes AS.

WOW!! I'm sorry. I seem to have started quite a debate. Seeing as how I hate conflict I have to say that I don't think it is possible to be 100% right when it comes to any syndrome, disorder or disease. I have Crohn's colitis and there are as many variables there as there are with this. My oldest son is AS but gifted so he shows differently than his brother. He also has an IQ of 146 but has far less common sense than my NT teenage son who has an IQ of 98. It seems rather unfair that it is possible to have a condition that causes very rigid black and white thinking but is full of so many shades of grey.