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Darmok
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16 May 2016, 6:53 pm

Very good column in USA Today for any young folks (especially) who haven't yet been completely brainwashed by the SJWs of the Junior Socialist League:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /32613393/

"It is a common misconception that socialism is about helping poor people. Actually, what socialism does is create poor people, and keep them poor. And that’s not by accident."


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marshall
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19 May 2016, 8:59 pm

Link doesn't work, but whatever...

I think the people against so-called "socialism" (i.e. Canada) are the brainwashed ones. I mean, who has the incentive to protect the richest Americans from ever having their damn taxes raised? The ruling classes are the ones that tend to do the brainwashing. Don't be a sucker for neo-liberal bullshit.



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19 May 2016, 9:23 pm

Meh depends on the sort of socialism.


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20 May 2016, 1:20 am

Socialism is perfectly fine if it's to provide for life-sustaining essentials. Except, providence of the essentials should be de-centralised, rather than for-profit monopolies.

Also, set up in such a manner as to let each and every single member of the community be able to contribute towards the creation of essentials for their local-community, preventing any possibility of monopolies over resources that are necessary for human-survival.

The essentials primarily include food, pure water for drinking, heat, shelter, electricity, transportation, communication, and perhaps various other forms of energies. Everything else will fall into place into a peaceful-world, free from war-mongering, once this kind of infra-structure can be established.

I hope those of you whom are still around after the global economic-collapse will be able to help me get this kind of a system established once I am ready to make my next move on some world-improvement projects.

Sweetleaf wrote:
Meh depends on the sort of socialism.


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Shrapnel
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20 May 2016, 4:53 am

American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

Conservatism on the other hand, worships at the altar of individualism. The State gets only whatever rights the individual chooses to grant it. Conservatives believe that the State works for them and not the other way around.

Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.



marshall
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20 May 2016, 9:09 am

Shrapnel wrote:
American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

Conservatism on the other hand, worships at the altar of individualism. The State gets only whatever rights the individual chooses to grant it. Conservatives believe that the State works for them and not the other way around.

Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.

I don't think Americans really understand the connection between "The State" and the population itself. "The State" does not exist as some kind of independent entity with a will of it's own. The people do control the state. It's just that people are often horrible selfish immoral idiots, and therefore the state becomes a monster. I think we basically get the government we deserve. Stupid is as stupid does. Things won't get better until the people holding on to most of the power and wealth and the stupid sheeple that worship them and believe their lies die off.



marshall
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20 May 2016, 9:11 am

Shrapnel wrote:
American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

Conservatism on the other hand, worships at the altar of individualism. The State gets only whatever rights the individual chooses to grant it. Conservatives believe that the State works for them and not the other way around.

Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.

:roll:



Jacoby
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20 May 2016, 9:37 am

marshall wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:
American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

Conservatism on the other hand, worships at the altar of individualism. The State gets only whatever rights the individual chooses to grant it. Conservatives believe that the State works for them and not the other way around.

Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.

I don't think Americans really understand the connection between "The State" and the population itself. "The State" does not exist as some kind of independent entity with a will of it's own. The people do control the state. It's just that people are often horrible selfish immoral idiots, and therefore the state becomes a monster. I think we basically get the government we deserve. Stupid is as stupid does. Things won't get better until the people holding on to most of the power and wealth and the stupid sheeple that worship them and believe their lies die off.


I think it is naive to think that 'the state' represents the interests of the people, it's controlled by entities much more powerful and influential than your individual American many of whose interests run completely counter clockwise to government policy as government policy is written by the same people we're supposedly regulating. A revolving door of corruption, how can you have a democracy if it's interests are so easily usurped from that of the common man? It does exist as an independent entity with it's on priorities, absolutely, and it will fight against any and all change.

It's best not too be an ideologue on economics since it is not the science it pretends to be, is building a bridge or a road socialism? Maybe if you have such an extreme black and white view where everything the government does with public money is socialism but since we don't live in a vacuum on Day 1 we must be more pragmatic with our thinking. A simple cost-benefit analysis can weigh to merits of many government policy, I don't think we're getting our money's worth by a long shot. Stop worrying about pleasing the animal spirits, we need an economy more built around saving and investing rather than rabid consumerism. Technology is advancing far faster than human society and progress is, I think there comes a point where automation will take the majority of jobs in this country and jobs are the most important thing since prices will not fall to essentially zero even with the costs of production approaching zero given the vast collectivization of wealth of those at the top who will still look to exploit and make more even money so the reality is that there will likely have to be a guaranteed basic income or else 70% of the population may be slaves.



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20 May 2016, 10:01 am

Shrapnel wrote:
American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

Conservatism on the other hand, worships at the altar of individualism. The State gets only whatever rights the individual chooses to grant it. Conservatives believe that the State works for them and not the other way around.

Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.


None of that is accurate socialism taken to its extreme would be communism, nationalism and authoritarianism taken to extremes is facism for one

Also if Conservatism worships at the altar of individualism why do many conservatives feel its ok to legislate religious morality? Or laws that interfere with personal choices? I mean last I checked it wasn't the liberals that threw a big fit about gay marrige being legalized and want to ban it again...Its not the liberals telling me if I get pregnant due to a condom failing I can't take a morning after pill or get an abortion. Pretty sure mandatory pre-employment drug tests aren't a product of the 'liberals' either but rather the conservatives. And its certainly not liberals in the surrounding states of Colorado who are complaining about our legal cannabis and trying to sue this state in the hopes it will be criminalized again. Doesn't sound like an ideology that worships at the alter of individualism to me.

Also unchecked capitalism by its-self serves the wealthy, with that there would be no public services, no social safety network for the poor and disabled, no safety regulations on jobs, no compensation for being maimed on the job....without a little bit of socialism our capitalistic system would be disastrous for most.


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marshall
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20 May 2016, 2:51 pm

Jacoby wrote:
It's best not too be an ideologue on economics since it is not the science it pretends to be, is building a bridge or a road socialism? Maybe if you have such an extreme black and white view where everything the government does with public money is socialism but since we don't live in a vacuum on Day 1 we must be more pragmatic with our thinking. A simple cost-benefit analysis can weigh to merits of many government policy, I don't think we're getting our money's worth by a long shot. Stop worrying about pleasing the animal spirits, we need an economy more built around saving and investing rather than rabid consumerism. Technology is advancing far faster than human society and progress is, I think there comes a point where automation will take the majority of jobs in this country and jobs are the most important thing since prices will not fall to essentially zero even with the costs of production approaching zero given the vast collectivization of wealth of those at the top who will still look to exploit and make more even money so the reality is that there will likely have to be a guaranteed basic income or else 70% of the population may be slaves.

I'm not an economic ideologue. I'm not a Marxist. People like Shrapnel and the OP are pro-capitalist ideologues. To them Norway or even Canada are "socialist". To them democratic socialism equates to Marxism, and the only "correct" option is "pure" capitalism where the poor and the weak are simply crushed to nothing so that "the strong" (i.e. wealthy) can flourish. American pro-capitalists are just thinly veiled social Darwinists.



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20 May 2016, 5:39 pm

What most Americans don't realize is that we spend even more on big government than so called 'socialist' countries, that doesn't mean we should copy the policies of these countries as most are bankrupting them especially with the massive influx of refugees into Europe. It wasn't sustainable and now it's crumbling down with first bit of stress. We have to worry about the globalists and those that wish to erase national borders, those are the real enemies. The people who support socialism in the US don't understand just as the people who are kneejerk oppose anything resembling it, I think most people support the market economy and private ownership and all that when they really think about it and merely support certain things that their opponents call socialism.



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20 May 2016, 5:51 pm

Oh boy, here we go. While I appreciate the OP intentions, I feel they are all in vain.
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Shrapnel
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20 May 2016, 8:21 pm

Continuing with Ayn Rand:

"Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."



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20 May 2016, 8:24 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

What about the Socialists that want to dismantle the state?

Jacoby wrote:
I think it is naive to think that 'the state' represents the interests of the people, it's controlled by entities much more powerful and influential than your individual American many of whose interests run completely counter clockwise to government policy as government policy is written by the same people we're supposedly regulating. A revolving door of corruption, how can you have a democracy if it's interests are so easily usurped from that of the common man? It does exist as an independent entity with it's on priorities, absolutely, and it will fight against any and all change.

Agreed

The state has always been a reactionary institution. Roosevelt for example, didn't pass The New Deal out of compassion. He did it, because people were about to take matters into their own hands. He was protecting the Capitalist class.

Social Democracy like Marxist-Leninism, is just a reset button. Just look at all the "Socialist" parties in Europe. They are returning to Neo-Liberal polices. Because Social Democrats, just like many Leninist officials (look at China, Russia, Cuba etc.) have made peace with Capitalism.



Last edited by RushKing on 20 May 2016, 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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20 May 2016, 8:45 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
Continuing with Ayn Rand:

"Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."

Replace "think" with "swindle".