Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Hey kids: Don't be a sucker for socialism

Page 31 of 49 [ 777 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 49  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

01 Sep 2018, 10:04 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AspE wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
"Socialism" is a poorly defined term that means different things to different people and in different contexts.

Not really. Socialism is defined as collective ownership of the means of production (not the means of healthcare of the means of education, plenty of capitalist countries have government run schools and hospitals). Typically socialism entails a fully government controlled economy, where even getting your toaster fixed is a government matter. This is a system that has failed time and time again.

The right, who are far more skilled at propaganda then the left have managed to conflate socialism with anything left of centre. The term is only poorly defined because they made it so. It was clearly defined before.]Rule 1 of propaganda, conflate something you don’t like with something almost nobody likes.

I accept the term willingly, government should be working for society. Socialism without authoritarianism is obviously less effective, so it requires a voluntary shift in ownership of collective enterprises. Even now there are employee-owned businesses.

Socialism with authoritarianism doesn't fit the definition of the people own the means of production because in that case, the government owns the means of production.

I get that some people don't like capitalism. It exploits people. Communism usually ends up doing the same thing with the government in place of the corporation. It is any better to be overworked and underpaid by the government than it is to be over worked and underpaid by a corporation?

All attempts at building a utopian society are doomed from the start. Remember that utopia means No Place. All types of society end up building unequal power structures because it is human nature to do so. In that, we have changed little since our simian ancestors.

Communism isn't a complete utopia. Complete equality is impossible (and I would argue undesirable).

What Communists are concerned with are class distinctions -as you mentioned, the social relations around production, having a separate class of people own and control our means of subsistence.

These inequalities aren't inevitabilities. Anarchism/Communism was the default way human beings organized themselves in prehistoric times.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,970
Location: Adelaide, Australia

01 Sep 2018, 6:17 pm

RushKing wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AspE wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
"Socialism" is a poorly defined term that means different things to different people and in different contexts.

Not really. Socialism is defined as collective ownership of the means of production (not the means of healthcare of the means of education, plenty of capitalist countries have government run schools and hospitals). Typically socialism entails a fully government controlled economy, where even getting your toaster fixed is a government matter. This is a system that has failed time and time again.

The right, who are far more skilled at propaganda then the left have managed to conflate socialism with anything left of centre. The term is only poorly defined because they made it so. It was clearly defined before.]Rule 1 of propaganda, conflate something you don’t like with something almost nobody likes.

I accept the term willingly, government should be working for society. Socialism without authoritarianism is obviously less effective, so it requires a voluntary shift in ownership of collective enterprises. Even now there are employee-owned businesses.

Socialism with authoritarianism doesn't fit the definition of the people own the means of production because in that case, the government owns the means of production.

I get that some people don't like capitalism. It exploits people. Communism usually ends up doing the same thing with the government in place of the corporation. It is any better to be overworked and underpaid by the government than it is to be over worked and underpaid by a corporation?

All attempts at building a utopian society are doomed from the start. Remember that utopia means No Place. All types of society end up building unequal power structures because it is human nature to do so. In that, we have changed little since our simian ancestors.

Communism isn't a complete utopia. Complete equality is impossible (and I would argue undesirable).

What Communists are concerned with are class distinctions -as you mentioned, the social relations around production, having a separate class of people own and control our means of subsistence.

These inequalities aren't inevitabilities. Anarchism/Communism was the default way human beings organized themselves in prehistoric times.

How do we know they had equality in prehistoric times?


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

05 Sep 2018, 9:01 pm

Image


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!


Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,665
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

06 Sep 2018, 2:53 am

Darmok wrote:
Image


you were recently caught posting fake images to either try and push a right wing agenda or because you don't understand politics.



Dylanperr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jan 2018
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,751
Location: The British Empire

07 Sep 2018, 10:57 am

My favorite economy type is a modern day guild system with a free market when employer and employee work together to benefit their interests, the nation and it's people before corporate profit. I also believe in low regulation and really strong private property rights.



Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

07 Sep 2018, 6:35 pm

The latest media darling the Left is swooning over is "Democratic Socialist" Julia Salazar, running for office in New York -- a poor immigrant woman from Colombia. Or maybe not. :lol: Socialism: it's fraud from top to bottom.

EXCLUSIVE: Private school, a waterside home, luxury boats, a jet-ski for four and a maid - Democratic Socialist Julia Salazar's brother reveals truth about the childhood she called 'hardscrabble'

-Alex Salazar, 29, revealed his sister Julia Salazar, 27, actually grew up in a sprawling waterfront home with a maid and attended private school in Florida
-He told DailyMail.com how their late father Luis Hernan Salazar immigrated from Colombia as a teen and grew to be a successful U.S. commercial and cargo pilot
-He said: 'Instead I have to sit here and listen to lies about who he was and who we are. And we are not just talking about airbrushing, we are talking outright lies'
-Julia has claimed she grew up among poor, working class immigrants, was raised by a single mother, went to public school, and was forced to get a job at 14
-Alex claims they had a 'great life' and were still supported by their father after their parents' divorce, and only worked as teens to learn responsibility
-Their mother, Christine, is a New Jersey native worked as a Pan-Am airlines stewardess and later, a pharmaceutical rep who bred Dalmatians
-In a statement from Salazar's campaign her mom said she and her daughter share memories of hardship - even if her son doesn't

Avowed socialist Julia Salazar grew up in a succession of sprawling waterfront homes enjoying all the trappings of middle-class life, from boats and luxury cars to pedigree pets and private school, DailyMail.com can reveal.

The 27-year-old Democratic candidate for the New York Senate has come unstuck in recent days after she was outed as a former Republican and accused of faking her hardscrabble immigrant backstory.

Now, DailyMail.com can reveal the extent of her deception with a series of images documenting Salazar's privileged upbringing in the upmarket Florida enclave of Jupiter, where her family built their own four-bedroom home, owned boats, a jet ski and rubbed shoulders with celebrities.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... chool.html


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!


Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,665
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

08 Sep 2018, 12:43 am

Darmok wrote:
The latest media darling the Left is swooning over is "Democratic Socialist" Julia Salazar, running for office in New York -- a poor immigrant woman from Colombia. Or maybe not. :lol: Socialism: it's fraud from top to bottom.

EXCLUSIVE: Private school, a waterside home, luxury boats, a jet-ski for four and a maid - Democratic Socialist Julia Salazar's brother reveals truth about the childhood she called 'hardscrabble'

-Alex Salazar, 29, revealed his sister Julia Salazar, 27, actually grew up in a sprawling waterfront home with a maid and attended private school in Florida
-He told DailyMail.com how their late father Luis Hernan Salazar immigrated from Colombia as a teen and grew to be a successful U.S. commercial and cargo pilot
-He said: 'Instead I have to sit here and listen to lies about who he was and who we are. And we are not just talking about airbrushing, we are talking outright lies'
-Julia has claimed she grew up among poor, working class immigrants, was raised by a single mother, went to public school, and was forced to get a job at 14
-Alex claims they had a 'great life' and were still supported by their father after their parents' divorce, and only worked as teens to learn responsibility
-Their mother, Christine, is a New Jersey native worked as a Pan-Am airlines stewardess and later, a pharmaceutical rep who bred Dalmatians
-In a statement from Salazar's campaign her mom said she and her daughter share memories of hardship - even if her son doesn't

Avowed socialist Julia Salazar grew up in a succession of sprawling waterfront homes enjoying all the trappings of middle-class life, from boats and luxury cars to pedigree pets and private school, DailyMail.com can reveal.

The 27-year-old Democratic candidate for the New York Senate has come unstuck in recent days after she was outed as a former Republican and accused of faking her hardscrabble immigrant backstory.

Now, DailyMail.com can reveal the extent of her deception with a series of images documenting Salazar's privileged upbringing in the upmarket Florida enclave of Jupiter, where her family built their own four-bedroom home, owned boats, a jet ski and rubbed shoulders with celebrities.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... chool.html


Not sure I can believe that story as you have been proved to post fake stuff on here to push your agenda and that link is to the Daily Mail which is the king of fake news in the UK.



Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

12 Sep 2018, 9:02 pm

Media darling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, fab new face of the youthful Democratic Party, Woman of the People:

Image


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!


AspE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,114

13 Sep 2018, 9:28 am

Darmok wrote:
The latest media darling the Left is swooning over is "Democratic Socialist" Julia Salazar, running for office in New York -- a poor immigrant woman from Colombia. Or maybe not. :lol: Socialism: it's fraud from top to bottom...

You can't dismiss Democratic Socialism just because one person turned out to be a liar.



AspE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,114

13 Sep 2018, 9:30 am

Darmok wrote:
Media darling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, fab new face of the youthful Democratic Party, Woman of the People:

I think she earned some new shoes:
https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1 ... 80/photo/1



Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,665
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

13 Sep 2018, 9:40 am

AspE wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Media darling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, fab new face of the youthful Democratic Party, Woman of the People:

I think she earned some new shoes:
https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1 ... 80/photo/1


facts and truth don't matter to those who push fake news to try and further their agenda



AspE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,114

13 Sep 2018, 9:43 am

Biscuitman wrote:
AspE wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Media darling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, fab new face of the youthful Democratic Party, Woman of the People:

I think she earned some new shoes:
https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1 ... 80/photo/1


facts and truth don't matter to those who push fake news to try and further their agenda

I don't know that it's fake. So she got some nice clothes, so what?

As a woman AND a Democratic Socialist, she's definitely going to be attacked by the right. Just brace yourself.



Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,665
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

13 Sep 2018, 10:10 am

AspE wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
AspE wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Media darling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democratic Socialist, fab new face of the youthful Democratic Party, Woman of the People:

I think she earned some new shoes:
https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1 ... 80/photo/1


facts and truth don't matter to those who push fake news to try and further their agenda

I don't know that it's fake. So she got some nice clothes, so what?

As a woman AND a Democratic Socialist, she's definitely going to be attacked by the right. Just brace yourself.


agree. We don't know if it's fake but we cannot be certain that it is not. The poster that put it on here was recently caught out pushing fake images/stories on here to push a right wing agenda. If someone has an actual proven history of doing that then I think you can no longer just trust what they say.

and agree on the 2nd part of your statement.



Tim_Tex
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2004
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 45,536
Location: Houston, Texas

13 Sep 2018, 1:50 pm

When the democratic socialists talk about taxing the rich, how exactly would the revenue be allocated?


_________________
Who’s better at math than a robot? They’re made of math!

Now proficient in ChatGPT!


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,740
Location: the island of defective toy santas

13 Sep 2018, 2:04 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
When the democratic socialists talk about taxing the rich, how exactly would the revenue be allocated?

like how they do it in the Scandinavian countries, mostly for society's benefit in general.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,970
Location: Adelaide, Australia

13 Sep 2018, 4:36 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
When the democratic socialists talk about taxing the rich, how exactly would the revenue be allocated?

like how they do it in the Scandinavian countries, mostly for society's benefit in general.

But Scandinavian countries aren't truly socialist. They have corporations like Ikea and Nokia. Remember that the definition of socialism is the means of production belong to the community as a whole.

In a truly socialist country it wouldn't be a question of how much to tax the rich, it would be a question of weather to send the rich to the collective farms or the collective factories.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short