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androbot01
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22 Jun 2016, 9:05 am

Do you feel that you can see a reality that is imperceptible to neurotypicals? I do. I feel like I can see all the ugliness that they are able to dismiss. A concrete world where children and the elderly are warehoused so the workers can busy themselves, spirituality fulfilled with products and brand affiliation. Empty salutations, selfishness and broken promises. Now, I know, I am depressed and am being treated for it. But which came first, the depression or the ugliness? If people saw what I see why wouldn't they be depressed?

Anyway, the reason I ask is because I have noticed that the nt world, in their dealings with autistic people, seem to believe that it is paramount to our "treatment" that we are taught to socialize. I have never been able to figure out why this is important. But it occurs to me that it could be because they know we can see this reality and they don't like it. We expose their nakedness, the emptiness of their verbal preening and shows of solidarity.



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22 Jun 2016, 9:15 am

I'm NT, but I became aware of this "real world" you're talking about only when I started studying sociology. I learned how to observe social interactions and how people stand and react to the social world that they perceive. It was kind of like swallowing the Matrix pill. It's made it hard for me to forget how artificial many neurotypical things are. I sometimes find myself forgetting to say and do the right things around other neurotypicals.

The thing is that neurotypicals do not care whether or not anyone can see that the NT has no clothes on, as long as everyone acts as though he does.



androbot01
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22 Jun 2016, 9:21 am

SocOfAutism wrote:
The thing is that neurotypicals do not care whether or not anyone can see that the NT has no clothes on, as long as everyone acts as though he does.
.
This is where my disconnect occurs. ^
For me, my own experience and what I would refer to as truth or reality is more important than the agreement of people.



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22 Jun 2016, 9:37 am

I have an ASD, and I agree with both of the preceding members on this topic.

There is more to add, though.

1. In the NT world, it seems that image is more important than substance. That is, what people think about you is more important than what they know about you. This is why your social skills are at least as important as your technical skills (if not more so) in hiring and employment.

2. In the NT world, it seems that belief is more important than knowledge. That is, as long as you believe strongly in the validity of your own beliefs, then that alone makes your beliefs valid. This is called "Circular Reasoning", and seems to form the basis of what passes for knowledge in the NT world.

3. In the NT world, it seems that comfortable lies are more important than uncomfortable truths. That is, empty flattery is more well-received than helpful advice. This is why it's important to lead with praise before getting down to the cold, hard facts with an NT.

It's almost as if NT's receive the Blue Pill at birth, while people with ASDs receive the Red Pill at birth.

Quote:
The terms, popularized in science fiction culture, are derived from the 1999 film "The Matrix". In the film, the main character Neo is offered the choice between a red pill and a blue pill. The blue pill would allow him to remain in the fabricated reality of the Matrix, therefore living the "ignorance of illusion", while the red pill would lead to his escape from the Matrix and into the real world, therefore living the "truth of reality" even though it is a harsher, more difficult life.

The analogy carries the idea that life is harsher for people with ASDs because we see the world as it really is, rather than the way the NTs want us to see the world (and themselves) - present company excepted, SoC.

:D


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Last edited by Fnord on 22 Jun 2016, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Jun 2016, 9:40 am

androbot01 wrote:
Do you feel that you can see a reality that is imperceptible to neurotypicals?

I do not merely feel this way but I know this to be the reality; especially the ones that are extremely quick to fly off the handle for the most ridiculous and minor of absurd reasons. Many of them seem to make so many absurd mistakes about so many things that it's just utterly ridiculous, like if they are late to appointments, then they are consistently late, when they break fragile things, they consistently continue to break anything that's fragile, when they have disorganised habits, they consistently continue with such disorganised habits, and the most troubling of all, THEY WILL NOT CORRECT THEMSELVES!! !

I basically have to correct their mistakes for them, explain to them how to do things better, but good luck with THAT unless they already know who I am and my capabilities. The last NT I bothered to associate with, annoying as he was, actually bothered to listen to my advice EVENTUALLY, and even runs a business now, went from being one of those extremely financially undisciplined financial-delinquents who kept on pestering me for money to borrow when we had first encountered, eventually to achieving millionaire net-worth in a few years worth of effort after taking my advice, but god-damn the amount of annoying still continued so I have since disassociated from him.

I can tolerate NTs whom are willing to humble themselves and aren't such a wreck that it takes a toll on my own energy and sanity. I completely refuse to deal with NTs whom are hyper-dogmatic and seem to think that they know every damn thing that there is to know about everything when in reality they do not really know jack s**t about anything. Yes, you are not the only one, many of us feel the same way.

androbot01 wrote:
I do. I feel like I can see all the ugliness that they are able to dismiss. A concrete world where children and the elderly are warehoused so the workers can busy themselves, spirituality fulfilled with products and brand affiliation. Empty salutations, selfishness and broken promises. Now, I know, I am depressed and am being treated for it. But which came first, the depression or the ugliness? If people saw what I see why wouldn't they be depressed?

Anyway, the reason I ask is because I have noticed that the nt world, in their dealings with autistic people, seem to believe that it is paramount to our "treatment" that we are taught to socialize. I have never been able to figure out why this is important. But it occurs to me that it could be because they know we can see this reality and they don't like it. We expose their nakedness, the emptiness of their verbal preening and shows of solidarity.


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Fnord
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22 Jun 2016, 9:53 am

Ban-Dodger wrote:
... THEY WILL NOT CORRECT THEMSELVES!! !

I basically have to correct their mistakes for them, explain to them how to do things better, but good luck with THAT unless they already know who I am and my capabilities. ...
Worse than this is when you have told them what they've done wrong, and they turn around and blame you for their mistakes!

This is one of the many reasons why I resigned from the Ruling Session of our church.


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androbot01
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22 Jun 2016, 9:54 am

Ban-Dodger wrote:
... and the most troubling of all, THEY WILL NOT CORRECT THEMSELVES!! !

I find this extremely annoying, especially in light of the energy autistic people have to spend to constantly correct our behaviour. Heaven forbid we upset an nt with inappropriate social behaviour.



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22 Jun 2016, 9:58 am

Fnord wrote:
I have an ASD, and I agree with both of the preceding members on this topic.

There is more to add, though.

1. In the NT world, it seems that image is more important than substance. That is, what people think about you is more important than what they know about you. This is why your social skills are at least as important as your technical skills (if not more so) in hiring and employment.

2. In the NT world, it seems that belief is more important than knowledge. That is, as long as you believe strongly in the validity of your own beliefs, then that alone makes your beliefs valid. This is called "Circular Reasoning", and seems to form the basis of what passes for knowledge in the NT world.

3. In the NT world, it seems that comfortable lies are more important than uncomfortable truths. That is, empty flattery is more well-received than helpful advice. This is why it's important to lead with praise before getting down to the cold, hard facts with an NT.

It's almost as if NT's receive the Blue Pill at birth, while people with ASDs receive the Red Pill at birth.
Quote:
The terms, popularized in science fiction culture, are derived from the 1999 film "The Matrix". In the film, the main character Neo is offered the choice between a red pill and a blue pill. The blue pill would allow him to remain in the fabricated reality of the Matrix, therefore living the "ignorance of illusion", while the red pill would lead to his escape from the Matrix and into the real world, therefore living the "truth of reality" even though it is a harsher, more difficult life.

The analogy carries the idea that life is harsher for people with ASDs because we see the world as it really is, rather than the way the NTs want us to see the world (and themselves) - present company excepted, SoC.

:D


Number 2 happens in the political threads here a little to often for my tastes.


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nurseangela
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22 Jun 2016, 10:03 am

Why can't people just accept others for who they are instead of wanting to change them all the time? If you don't like how a certain person in your life acts, then just avoid them.


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22 Jun 2016, 10:18 am

...people are accepted for as long as they are not interfering with our life, but if the habits are bad enough to affect our efforts, try imaging what it might be like if you have to rely on a consistently late NT to take you to appointments, NTs who make a gigantic mess when you're trying to get s**t in the house organised, NTs who mix important items with unimportant items whilst making said mess (such to the point that NEITHER of you can find the important items/documents without having to DIG THROUGH the mountains of clutter), but if you can't see how these things are crossing the line of acceptability, due to affecting our livelihoods, the more reason we end up having to vent and rant about it so that we don't feel like the only isolated individual on the whole entire planet who seems to be the only one in our whole entire community to experience these frustrations.

nurseangela wrote:
Why can't people just accept others for who they are instead of wanting to change them all the time? If you don't like how a certain person in your life acts, then just avoid them.


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22 Jun 2016, 10:22 am

Fnord wrote:
Worse than this is when you have told them what they've done wrong, and they turn around and blame you for their mistakes!

Or they say your idea is stupid and a week later everyone is doing it.
nurseangela wrote:
Why can't people just accept others for who they are instead of wanting to change them all the time? If you don't like how a certain person in your life acts, then just avoid them.

I'm pretty good at avoiding people I don't like. I'm thinking more in general: social norms, chatter and media.

There's another thread about this Finding Dory movie. I am going to have to go and see it for myself (God help me,) but if what is being said about Gerald the sea lion is true, I will be very upset. Pixar is huge with kids and to think of bullying, ostracism and theft being encouraged chills me to the bone.



jbw
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22 Jun 2016, 10:22 am

androbot01 wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
The thing is that neurotypicals do not care whether or not anyone can see that the NT has no clothes on, as long as everyone acts as though he does.
.
This is where my disconnect occurs. ^
For me, my own experience and what I would refer to as truth or reality is more important than the agreement of people.

Yes. This is the big gulf between the autistic and the neurotypical worlds.

It is incomprehensible how NTs can perceive a dysfunctional environment, and then simply ignore it. It must be because they are afraid to be seen to be "stepping out of line".

Fnord, your 3 points sum it up nicely.



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22 Jun 2016, 10:35 am

Ban-Dodger wrote:
...people are accepted for as long as they are not interfering with our life, but if the habits are bad enough to affect our efforts, try imaging what it might be like if you have to rely on a consistently late NT to take you to appointments, NTs who make a gigantic mess when you're trying to get s**t in the house organised, NTs who mix important items with unimportant items whilst making said mess (such to the point that NEITHER of you can find the important items/documents without having to DIG THROUGH the mountains of clutter), but if you can't see how these things are crossing the line of acceptability, due to affecting our livelihoods, the more reason we end up having to vent and rant about it so that we don't feel like the only isolated individual on the whole entire planet who seems to be the only one in our whole entire community to experience these frustrations.
nurseangela wrote:
Why can't people just accept others for who they are instead of wanting to change them all the time? If you don't like how a certain person in your life acts, then just avoid them.


The consistently late NT needs to be fired. And it sounds like you need your own place by yourself.


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
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nurseangela
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22 Jun 2016, 10:38 am

Fnord wrote:
I have an ASD, and I agree with both of the preceding members on this topic.

There is more to add, though.

1. In the NT world, it seems that image is more important than substance. That is, what people think about you is more important than what they know about you. This is why your social skills are at least as important as your technical skills (if not more so) in hiring and employment.

2. In the NT world, it seems that belief is more important than knowledge. That is, as long as you believe strongly in the validity of your own beliefs, then that alone makes your beliefs valid. This is called "Circular Reasoning", and seems to form the basis of what passes for knowledge in the NT world.

3. In the NT world, it seems that comfortable lies are more important than uncomfortable truths. That is, empty flattery is more well-received than helpful advice. This is why it's important to lead with praise before getting down to the cold, hard facts with an NT.

It's almost as if NT's receive the Blue Pill at birth, while people with ASDs receive the Red Pill at birth.
Quote:
The terms, popularized in science fiction culture, are derived from the 1999 film "The Matrix". In the film, the main character Neo is offered the choice between a red pill and a blue pill. The blue pill would allow him to remain in the fabricated reality of the Matrix, therefore living the "ignorance of illusion", while the red pill would lead to his escape from the Matrix and into the real world, therefore living the "truth of reality" even though it is a harsher, more difficult life.

The analogy carries the idea that life is harsher for people with ASDs because we see the world as it really is, rather than the way the NTs want us to see the world (and themselves) - present company excepted, SoC.

:D


I'm curious, are you able to take constructive criticism well, Fnord?


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I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


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22 Jun 2016, 10:54 am

You can't fire the (technically) self-employed who also has retirement-enabling finances from inheritance.

nurseangela wrote:
The consistently late NT needs to be fired. And it sounds like you need your own place by yourself.

I also now currently live by myself by the way. Too much damn work to get done and it would be impossible to do anything if I were under the same roof as an NT who seems to have no clue how to do anything themselves.


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22 Jun 2016, 10:59 am

I think this 'no cure' attitude where there is nothing 'wrong' with us but with everybody else is damaging as it is dismissive to those of us that do need assistance and is essentially saying to pull yourself up from your bootstraps. All I can say is my education totally failed me and left totally unprepared for the 'real world', they straight up refused to pay for me to go to a specialized school and paid a union teacher even more money than the tuition to come out to my house twice a week to do an hour of pretend school work. I essentially dropped out of high school in the 9th grade and thats how they passed me thru high school, they gave me no help socially or anything and rather just further isolated me and made any semblance of a transition a complete joke. They had nothing for me, my life is where is now in large part of avoidance and reluctance to accept treatment of any sort which left me reclusive for years. Not all of us are so lucky to be born into good families, good neighborhoods, with good friends and you can be crippled without it. Being able to socialize is paramount to functioning as human, it is a deficiency that at least I feel I have. I dunno if this is on topic or not or if I'm just replying to words. "The NT world" doesn't seem to have time for me and I don't have any other world besides the one in my head. **** it.