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beneficii
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11 Jul 2016, 12:31 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Implicit, or unconscious, racial bias where you discriminate based on race without even realizing it, on the other hand, is a real and well-documented societal problem. There is evidence that police officers are more likely to interpret actions by a black man as more hostile than the same actions by a white man, because of this implicit bias. There's a good chance the decision-making of the officer in this case was influenced by this unconscious bias.

"Well-documented" does not equal "PROOF", because documents can be slanted by the writer, misinterpreted by the reader, etc.; and, even videos / photos can be misinterpreted by the viewer----or, slanted by the video-taker, as, IMO, could, very well, have been done in THIS case.

If you're WHITE----man OR woman----and, you have a gun on your lap when you're pulled-over, your chances of getting shot / killed, are VERY good!!


What would you consider proof? To me, if it's well-documented, and studies supporting it consistently appear in the peer-reviewed literature, then you should work on the assumption that it's real.

Moreover, I think looking at it with this approach, because of the documented pervasiveness of this bias, is a lot more fruitful than trying to defame a dead man with made-up bullcrap to make us feel better about what happened.

Quote:
I'm thinking an UNconscious officer is incapable of making ANY decisions / biases----they might be there in his SUBconcious, but how could we know, if he's unconscious?


What are you talking about? I'm talking about implicit bias, where it influences your decisions even though you're unaware of it. Another word for this is "unconscious bias", because it emphasizes the unaware part. A key point about implicit bias is that it is automatic, often influencing your decision-making even though you are not aware of any such bias.

We are not aware of everything that goes on in our minds, and our decision-making process is always affected by unseen factors in our mind. This is the groundbreaking insight of modern psychology.

The purpose of the Implicit Associations Test is to reveal the implicit biases people have about race, what they automatically associate members of certain races with:

Quote:
The Implicit Association Test (IAT) measures attitudes and beliefs that people may be unwilling or unable to report. The IAT may be especially interesting if it shows that you have an implicit attitude that you did not know about. For example, you may believe that women and men should be equally associated with science, but your automatic associations could show that you (like many others) associate men with science more than you associate women with science.


https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/education.html


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11 Jul 2016, 7:18 pm

ZenDen wrote:
There have been terrible things in my life I won't even share with my wife of 54 years. You'd think that might make me much more sensitive...but it hasn't...it takes work. But I'm working on it.

I find this very interesting----you're the second person, this week, to say that to me. I've told most people I've ever met about all the bad things that have happened in my life----my thinking was: "You have to know ALL of me, and if you're STILL accepting of me, we've got a chance". I guess I figured a relationship didn't stand a chance, unless I put all of my cards on the table.

Campin_Cat wrote:
Bottom line, for ME, is that you’ll never, in a million years, convince me that the way I feel / think about this subject, is wrong----and, you’ll never convince me that you’re right, so…..


Wellll...they say "never say never." When I was younger, before much of my life, I would have agreed with you 100%;

Ah, yes----when I was younger, before much of my life, I wouldn't have said it, cuz I KNEW better. I am OLDER, now----AFTER much of my life, and to borrow from Joni Mitchell, "I've looked at life from both sides now".

In the seventies, when you were working with / talking to those black men, and I was going to school with black kids, I SHARED your opinion of them. Now, that I'm LIVING / working with them, as an ADULT, I see things from a MUCH different perspective.

By THEN, my mother had gotten a good job, and had a car, and we had a TV----and, I often felt badly for people who couldn't have that. Also, when one has someone taking care of them, one sees things differently.

NOW, when I'm struggling, so, it's very difficult for me to feel sorry for someone who cries "poor-mouth", all-the-time, is on welfare, etc., but can go to the hair-dresser's anytime they want, drives a nice car, etc., etc.

Also, we're talking about 40 years ago (+/-)..... Your opinions seem NOT to have changed----my guess is, because your EXPERIENCES have not changed----MINE HAVE (opinions AND experiences). IMO, if my thinking of things hadn't broaden, I don't know if I'd've survived, "out here".

When one is thirty-ish, they react differently to people, and people react differently, to THEM, than when they're in their seventies----just as when one is in their teens, as *I* was. Also, it was a different time, in our country----different culture----the people we were relating-to, back THEN, are NOT the same people, today, EITHER.

For me, to think I will always think the same, frightens me a little.

Maybe because thinking the same, would mean you haven't grown / increased your knowledge, or whatever. I can understand that----I'm thinking it's quite common for ASDers, because we hunger, so, for knowledge. I can NEVER (there's that word, again, LOL) learn enough!!

I now actively question all of my long held beliefs, and find some need to be updated.....

That's WONDERFUL----IMO, very healthy!! When I was a kid, a person your age with that attitude was, seemingly, non-existent.

The privation you lived through when you were young was something I did not experience; for me the lack was mostly all social/emotional. It's not easy to be able to put yourself in someone's shoes as they grew up, and for me (and others) it's especially hard. I do much better with cold facts. I should have tried harder...I apologize for not treating you like a human being instead of a disembodied voice in a paragraph. Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa.

Actually, I experienced MORE years of privation, as an ADULT, than a child----that was partly the point of my post; and, why I'm on a mission, now!

I don't know that there ARE any "cold facts". I mean, for every fact, there's a counter-fact; for every research, there's a counter; for every study, there's a counter----the best one can do, maybe, is "best 3-outta-5", or something. Plus, I feel if we allow ourselves to get stuck in the mindset of "Just the facts, ma'am", we might miss a chance to grow. Aspies seem to want everything in a nice, neat little package, tied-up with a bow (I, certainly, have been guilty of this), but life can't always give us that----sometimes, if we're lucky enough to even GET a package, the wait for wrapping paper, seems to take forever; and THEN, we might have to wait ANOTHER millennium (not literal), for a BOW. (My theory is, people like us like to have control over the OUTSIDE [I've been like this, too], cuz we have no control, over the INSIDE; and, our insides are driving us crazy, so we've gotta have a reprieve, SOMEWHERE.)

I accept your apology!!

Take care,

Cat



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11 Jul 2016, 7:48 pm

beneficii wrote:
What would you consider proof? To me, if it's well-documented, and studies supporting it consistently appear in the peer-reviewed literature, then you should work on the assumption that it's real.

One could argue that there IS no proof----only our conclusions. I'm guessing that for every study, there's a counter-study----and, every study can be skewed in favor of whomever's paying for it. IMO, the best we can do, maybe, is to read everything we can get our hands on, from BOTH sides of an argument, and take the best 3 outta 5, or something.

Quote:
I'm thinking an UNconscious officer is incapable of making ANY decisions / biases----they might be there in his SUBconcious, but how could we know, if he's unconscious?


What are you talking about?

That was my way of tactfully telling you, you had used the wrong word (you should've used SUBconscious, instead of UNconscious).

I'm talking about implicit bias, where it influences your decisions even though you're unaware of it. Another word for this is "unconscious bias".....

If you read that term "unconscious bias" in some study, paper, article, or whatever, the person who wrote it, was in err.



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11 Jul 2016, 8:31 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
beneficii wrote:
What would you consider proof? To me, if it's well-documented, and studies supporting it consistently appear in the peer-reviewed literature, then you should work on the assumption that it's real.

One could argue that there IS no proof----only our conclusions. I'm guessing that for every study, there's a counter-study----and, every study can be skewed in favor of whomever's paying for it. IMO, the best we can do, maybe, is to read everything we can get our hands on, from BOTH sides of an argument, and take the best 3 outta 5, or something.

Quote:
I'm thinking an UNconscious officer is incapable of making ANY decisions / biases----they might be there in his SUBconcious, but how could we know, if he's unconscious?


What are you talking about?

That was my way of tactfully telling you, you had used the wrong word (you should've used SUBconscious, instead of UNconscious).

I'm talking about implicit bias, where it influences your decisions even though you're unaware of it. Another word for this is "unconscious bias".....

If you read that term "unconscious bias" in some study, paper, article, or whatever, the person who wrote it, was in err.



I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

"One could argue that there IS no proof----only our conclusions. I'm guessing that for every study, there's a counter-study----and, every study can be skewed in favor of whomever's paying for it. IMO, the best we can do, maybe, is to read everything we can get our hands on, from BOTH sides of an argument, and take the best 3 outta 5, or something."

Yeah, there are people who say there is "no proof" of evolution, "no proof" of climate change, "no proof" of anything. They say we can't know anything about anything, so we might as well treat everybody's point as just as valid as any other, no matter how how made-up it is.

Sorry. I'm not buying it.


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11 Jul 2016, 8:44 pm

Implicit bias is real. Training against implicit bias is becoming more common among police forces in the US.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/maga ... _id=102011



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11 Jul 2016, 8:57 pm

beneficii wrote:
Now they'll say you had it coming if an officer gets scared and shoots you.


I'd almost like to see them try that, me being blond and blue and lacking any criminal record, but the whole getting shot part sounds like a deal breaker. I've never been pulled over with a gun in my lap, but if I were, I'd be damned sure to tuck the thing out of sight before the cop got to my window, it's not like you don't have time while pulling over, and throwing it under the seat can be done pretty inconspicuously. Really, if someone wanted to shoot a cop who's pulling them over, the way to do it would be to already have the gun in your hand when they come to the window, maybe under a map or something, this whole "he went for the gun" thing doesn't make any sense on any level.

The whole thing kinda makes me want to get one of those personal dash cams, just in case.


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12 Jul 2016, 1:48 am

Dillogic wrote:
I question that say, a white person that's always around white people, will have innate biases when exposed to a different culture [or class]--language barriers are the biggest problem, and if everyone can speak the same language, it shouldn't be a problem at all.


The evidence suggests (unfortunately) that they do
http://kdvr.com/2014/12/11/study-if-you ... t-control/

The basic algorithm is the less exposure you have to other cultures the more uncomfortable you are with dark skin...it's out of your control.



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12 Jul 2016, 6:06 am

beneficii wrote:
I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

IMO, one of the reasons for this, is because the internet is MURDERING the English language! One idiot uses the wrong word for something, then another idiot, without thinking what they're doing, copies it, then another, then another, until it becomes widely accepted. When I was in school, for instance, we were taught that "alot" and "thankyou" were each written, as ONE word. People changing each of them into TWO words, is illogical, IMO. If people like to question so much, why don't they question THAT? No other country, IMO, slaughters the English language, like Americans.

Campin_Cat wrote:
One could argue that there IS no proof----only our conclusions. I'm guessing that for every study, there's a counter-study----and, every study can be skewed in favor of whomever's paying for it. IMO, the best we can do, maybe, is to read everything we can get our hands on, from BOTH sides of an argument, and take the best 3 outta 5, or something.

Yeah, there are people who say there is "no proof" of evolution, "no proof" of climate change, "no proof" of anything. They say we can't know anything about anything, so we might as well treat everybody's point as just as valid as any other, no matter how how made-up it is.

Sorry. I'm not buying it.

You're not buying it, because you don't WANT to----you want ONE answer----everything tied-up in a nice, neat little package!! Life isn't always like that. As difficult as it is for us Aspies to accept (I've been guilty of the exact same thing), there just isn't a black-and-white answer, sometimes. We want an answer because that settles it, for us----closes the case----and we can go-on to think / study another matter.

"Made-up" is subjective. What's construed as "made-up", by ONE, is NOT construed as "made-up", by another. I get that that sucks----but, that's just the way it is, so we might-as-well just accept it, and get-on with ourselves.



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12 Jul 2016, 7:19 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
You're not buying it, because you don't WANT to----you want ONE answer----everything tied-up in a nice, neat little package!! Life isn't always like that. As difficult as it is for us Aspies to accept (I've been guilty of the exact same thing), there just isn't a black-and-white answer, sometimes. We want an answer because that settles it, for us----closes the case----and we can go-on to think / study another matter.


Here we go with the amateur psychoanalysis. Actually, what I'm talking about isn't simple, or cut-and-dried.

Quote:
"Made-up" is subjective. What's construed as "made-up", by ONE, is NOT construed as "made-up", by another. I get that that sucks----but, that's just the way it is, so we might-as-well just accept it, and get-on with ourselves.


It is made up. If you need the link to the Snopes article again, here it is:

http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile- ... d-robbery/

Since you've taken it upon yourself to talk personally about your opponent, I will say that I've observed that you always try to justify these kinds of shootings with even the scantest of evidence. You constantly talk about how black youth don't show a respectful tone and manner and that is why they die and the police target them, and that is the way it should be. It looks to me like you need this to be true, you need it to be where there is no implicit racial bias, or anything like that, or you will be forced to reevaluate your views. You are trying to put off that reevaluation for as long as possible.


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12 Jul 2016, 7:42 am

beneficii wrote:
I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

I have bias.

1st: What someone looks like. Are they scary looking?

2nd: Random Blacks in the ghetto. When you go into the ghetto, it's like a zombie movie, and blacks are the zombies. They could attack you at any time. Survey, watch your back, don't break down.

3rd: The context. If the person lives in a ghetto or slums, then I think they're dangerous. What kind of person lives in such filth, such disrepair? What's wrong with that person I wonder.

4th: Groups of people. What're they doing there? Is this a gang? For example, I once saw about eight "skin head" white guys at a gas station. I got out of there quickly.



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12 Jul 2016, 8:30 am

beneficii wrote:
Since you've taken it upon yourself to talk personally about your opponent, I will say that I've observed that you always try to justify these kinds of shootings with even the scantest of evidence. You constantly talk about how black youth don't show a respectful tone and manner and that is why they die and the police target them, and that is the way it should be. It looks to me like you need this to be true, you need it to be where there is no implicit racial bias, or anything like that, or you will be forced to reevaluate your views. You are trying to put off that reevaluation for as long as possible.

Wow. LOLOLOL TOO funny!!



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12 Jul 2016, 8:32 am

cyberdad wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
I question that say, a white person that's always around white people, will have innate biases when exposed to a different culture [or class]--language barriers are the biggest problem, and if everyone can speak the same language, it shouldn't be a problem at all.


The evidence suggests (unfortunately) that they do
http://kdvr.com/2014/12/11/study-if-you ... t-control/

The basic algorithm is the less exposure you have to other cultures the more uncomfortable you are with dark skin...it's out of your control.


Is it totally out of your control, for EVERYONE?????....Really....I find this hard to believe.

But perhaps what you're really saying is, they follow regular statistical methods for processing their experimental data and come up with something like a regular bell-curve.....can you tell us if this is true???

The reason I mention this is, if you apply these results to your on-line casual conversation, but do not say there are variations within your results when you talk to people, you make it sound as though THEY typify what you find at the peak of your bell curve, when actually the person you're conversing with may be on any lower part of the curve....you couldn't know this without testing. Right?. And since Cat (or any other individual you speak with) for example may have much more inter-racial experience than most then she has less "implicit bias"; is this correct?

And then there are also statistical anomalies, that may be ignored in the overall picture, but exist for the individual.
More information please.



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12 Jul 2016, 8:51 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
There have been terrible things in my life I won't even share with my wife of 54 years. You'd think that might make me much more sensitive...but it hasn't...it takes work. But I'm working on it.

I find this very interesting----you're the second person, this week, to say that to me. I've told most people I've ever met about all the bad things that have happened in my life----my thinking was: "You have to know ALL of me, and if you're STILL accepting of me, we've got a chance". I guess I figured a relationship didn't stand a chance, unless I put all of my cards on the table.

Campin_Cat wrote:
Bottom line, for ME, is that you’ll never, in a million years, convince me that the way I feel / think about this subject, is wrong----and, you’ll never convince me that you’re right, so…..


Wellll...they say "never say never." When I was younger, before much of my life, I would have agreed with you 100%;

Ah, yes----when I was younger, before much of my life, I wouldn't have said it, cuz I KNEW better. I am OLDER, now----AFTER much of my life, and to borrow from Joni Mitchell, "I've looked at life from both sides now".

In the seventies, when you were working with / talking to those black men, and I was going to school with black kids, I SHARED your opinion of them. Now, that I'm LIVING / working with them, as an ADULT, I see things from a MUCH different perspective.

By THEN, my mother had gotten a good job, and had a car, and we had a TV----and, I often felt badly for people who couldn't have that. Also, when one has someone taking care of them, one sees things differently.

NOW, when I'm struggling, so, it's very difficult for me to feel sorry for someone who cries "poor-mouth", all-the-time, is on welfare, etc., but can go to the hair-dresser's anytime they want, drives a nice car, etc., etc.

Also, we're talking about 40 years ago (+/-)..... Your opinions seem NOT to have changed----my guess is, because your EXPERIENCES have not changed----MINE HAVE (opinions AND experiences). IMO, if my thinking of things hadn't broaden, I don't know if I'd've survived, "out here".

When one is thirty-ish, they react differently to people, and people react differently, to THEM, than when they're in their seventies----just as when one is in their teens, as *I* was. Also, it was a different time, in our country----different culture----the people we were relating-to, back THEN, are NOT the same people, today, EITHER.

For me, to think I will always think the same, frightens me a little.

Maybe because thinking the same, would mean you haven't grown / increased your knowledge, or whatever. I can understand that----I'm thinking it's quite common for ASDers, because we hunger, so, for knowledge. I can NEVER (there's that word, again, LOL) learn enough!!

I now actively question all of my long held beliefs, and find some need to be updated.....

That's WONDERFUL----IMO, very healthy!! When I was a kid, a person your age with that attitude was, seemingly, non-existent.

The privation you lived through when you were young was something I did not experience; for me the lack was mostly all social/emotional. It's not easy to be able to put yourself in someone's shoes as they grew up, and for me (and others) it's especially hard. I do much better with cold facts. I should have tried harder...I apologize for not treating you like a human being instead of a disembodied voice in a paragraph. Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa.

Actually, I experienced MORE years of privation, as an ADULT, than a child----that was partly the point of my post; and, why I'm on a mission, now!

I don't know that there ARE any "cold facts". I mean, for every fact, there's a counter-fact; for every research, there's a counter; for every study, there's a counter----the best one can do, maybe, is "best 3-outta-5", or something. Plus, I feel if we allow ourselves to get stuck in the mindset of "Just the facts, ma'am", we might miss a chance to grow. Aspies seem to want everything in a nice, neat little package, tied-up with a bow (I, certainly, have been guilty of this), but life can't always give us that----sometimes, if we're lucky enough to even GET a package, the wait for wrapping paper, seems to take forever; and THEN, we might have to wait ANOTHER millennium (not literal), for a BOW. (My theory is, people like us like to have control over the OUTSIDE [I've been like this, too], cuz we have no control, over the INSIDE; and, our insides are driving us crazy, so we've gotta have a reprieve, SOMEWHERE.)

I accept your apology!!

Take care,

Cat



Thanks very much Cat. :D

You said it's entirely possible I'm out of touch with changes in the black community, not having close association for many years.

At first I thought "Now wait a minute here..." but after I thought about it for a while I thought.."Is it possible for an entire group of people to change like this?"

You've said it's almost as though there is a "different culture" in Black neighborhoods. Supposedly poor people flashing signs of wealth and "hauteur" while you live the impoverished life.

As far as I know the government hasn't increased it's Welfare payments drastically (I could be wrong-tell me if I am please) so where does this money come from???? The only thing I can think of (overall not in the specific) is drug profit; would you concur? Do you see more evidence of drug use in your neighborhood that weren't evident many years ago??? Can you move?



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12 Jul 2016, 2:10 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

I have bias.

1st: What someone looks like. Are they scary looking?

2nd: Random Blacks in the ghetto. When you go into the ghetto, it's like a zombie movie, and blacks are the zombies. They could attack you at any time. Survey, watch your back, don't break down.

3rd: The context. If the person lives in a ghetto or slums, then I think they're dangerous. What kind of person lives in such filth, such disrepair? What's wrong with that person I wonder.

4th: Groups of people. What're they doing there? Is this a gang? For example, I once saw about eight "skin head" white guys at a gas station. I got out of there quickly.


1st - Never judge a book by it's cover.
2nd - A tad bit dehumanizing, don't you think?
3rd - What's wrong with people that they live in the ghetto? Lack of money and means to live anywhere else.
4th - Sure, it's sound thinking to avoid people who are criminally inclined, whether they be skinheads or a street gang. But not all blacks belong to street gangs, anymore than most whites are skinheads.


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12 Jul 2016, 3:50 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

I have bias.

1st: What someone looks like. Are they scary looking?

2nd: Random Blacks in the ghetto. When you go into the ghetto, it's like a zombie movie, and blacks are the zombies. They could attack you at any time. Survey, watch your back, don't break down.

3rd: The context. If the person lives in a ghetto or slums, then I think they're dangerous. What kind of person lives in such filth, such disrepair? What's wrong with that person I wonder.

4th: Groups of people. What're they doing there? Is this a gang? For example, I once saw about eight "skin head" white guys at a gas station. I got out of there quickly.


1st - Never judge a book by it's cover.
2nd - A tad bit dehumanizing, don't you think?
3rd - What's wrong with people that they live in the ghetto? Lack of money and means to live anywhere else.
4th - Sure, it's sound thinking to avoid people who are criminally inclined, whether they be skinheads or a street gang. But not all blacks belong to street gangs, anymore than most whites are skinheads.


You remind me of the oblivious guy in horror movies, that reassures everyone "nothing to worry about", "monsters aren't real" .....

While everyone else can see the potential danger.



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12 Jul 2016, 4:06 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I rarely, if ever, come across "subconscious bias", but whatever.

I have bias.

1st: What someone looks like. Are they scary looking?

2nd: Random Blacks in the ghetto. When you go into the ghetto, it's like a zombie movie, and blacks are the zombies. They could attack you at any time. Survey, watch your back, don't break down.

3rd: The context. If the person lives in a ghetto or slums, then I think they're dangerous. What kind of person lives in such filth, such disrepair? What's wrong with that person I wonder.

4th: Groups of people. What're they doing there? Is this a gang? For example, I once saw about eight "skin head" white guys at a gas station. I got out of there quickly.


1st - Never judge a book by it's cover.
2nd - A tad bit dehumanizing, don't you think?
3rd - What's wrong with people that they live in the ghetto? Lack of money and means to live anywhere else.
4th - Sure, it's sound thinking to avoid people who are criminally inclined, whether they be skinheads or a street gang. But not all blacks belong to street gangs, anymore than most whites are skinheads.


You remind me of the oblivious guy in horror movies, that reassures everyone "nothing to worry about", "monsters aren't real" .....

While everyone else can see the potential danger.



It's said that the difference between the liberal and conservative brains is that conservatives are more likely to be fearful.
As for haunted houses - I grew up in a house I believe might have been, and I found the less fear you have, the less energy you give to whatever entity might be there. So the husband in the video was actually doing the right thing.


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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer